ERP035 - Moving from TnM to MSP Model w/ Nigel Moore

Welcome to Evolved Radio where we explore the evolution of business and technology. Today on the podcast, my guest is Nigel Moore, founder of the Tech Tribe. Nigel built and sold a successful MSP in Sydney, Australia. He is now the lead of a tribe of MSP owners looking to grow their MSP practice. Nigel and I talk about the evolution of the IT service company to an MSP. The mistakes people make and what makes it difficult to transition. We also explore the idea of if you should do TNM, MSP or just go pure play MSP. Something that's hotly debated in the industry. Nigel is a fantastic guy and is truly passionate about the industry. Please welcome Nigel. If you enjoyed the show, be sure to subscribe on iTunes, Stitcher or wherever you get your podcast from. Also, be sure to check out the web page evolvedmt.com/podcast for show notes, links to my guests and to check out previous episodes. Now, let's get started. Joining on the podcast is Nigel Moore, founder of the Tech Tribe. Welcome to Nigel. Hello, or good day, I should be saying as I am sitting on the other side of the world. Down under. All the way from Australia, early in the morning. I appreciate you making the time and coming on the podcast, Nigel. Thank you. It's only either a podcast recording or a good surf that gets me out of bed this early in the morning. Excellent. So today we're going to touch on some uh topical items for the MSP operators and owners. And we're going to talk a bit about uh selling TNM versus the MSP model. And I think this is very uh interesting to a lot of people, especially the smaller groups that are maybe in a transitionary phase. And they've grown their IT service business, kind of selling to whoever they could get some work from and doing the TNM predominantly. And now they're maybe scratching their head and saying, I keep hearing about this MSP model and this everyone says it's the best thing since sliced bread in IT. And maybe I should be doing this and uh there's a a bunch of hurdles and um both mental as well as business process that I think uh make this a a difficult move. But one that I think is worth discussing. So, hotly debated in the industry. And um I have some ideas around why people shouldn't uh do TNM versus MSP. So I'll rattle off a couple of these just to get us started. Um the one of the things I'm really against the TNM model is uh it's a distraction from the core business if you're trying to build an MSP uh and really focus on the MSP. Then it it can be a bit of a distraction uh because it has a it can attract and retain certain customers that maybe not a fit. They're often have lower budgets, they don't view you as a strategic partner. It could be administratively burdensome from billing a scheduling standpoint. And I think the biggest thing is it kind of lever it limits leverage and scale. So there's not necessarily um a way that you can get past dollars per hour. So your business is limited by number of man hours that you can produce through a week and that kind of gives you your range for profitability. Not that you can't make good money at it, but I think the MSP model allows a lot more scalability and leverage. Uh so I'll turn it back to you. Uh recognizing that the the work you do is is largely in helping MSP owners and IT service business owners uh grow from a small business to a much larger business. And wanted to certainly get your thoughts since you see a lot of this. Yeah, one of the big struggles that most a lot of people that I I speak and coach is around that transition from break fix to managed services. And and a lot of us, especially techy led MSPs that started off without the intention to start an MSP. We we typically, we had a few people asking us for computer help and bang next day we know we've got a business on our hands. And so a lot of people that I am talking to are kind of from that mentality where we're we're techies led or we're techy from the beginning. We don't understand or we're not we're not really uh kicking out with a great business knowledge. And so what I see out there is this big struggle of how to transition from a time and materials basis where people are happy doing time for money, time for dollars, consulting and whatnot. To building out an actual product or a service and how to actually position that and structure that and what's included and what's excluded. And trying to figure out how to manage that risk of unlimited, which is a big, big kind of psychological pain point for a lot of MSPs I see out there, especially the smaller, smaller guys like myself many years ago where we sit there and we go, hey, if we're going to go and give out an unlimited plan to somebody, I've got an enormous risk that I've got in there and and there's potential for me to to go out of business by it. In in hindsight, I have never in my my 15 years in the industry and speaking and coaching to hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of MSPs seen anyone even get close to being put out of business by a client. But it is a a real and rational fear when you first get started. So there's some of the pain points that I see. Uh I am like you. I am a very big believer in that managed services is by far the biggest benefit in not just for us as a business model because it gives you obviously that recurrable predictable income, but also for the clients because you're giving them that that proactive kind of kind of work, you're giving them fixed repeatable pricing, you're giving them SLAs which you shouldn't be giving them if you're on time and materials, even though most of us do uh when we're starting out. But you're giving them all these things. So it is a win-win on both sides, but it does take a bit of a transition and a bit of a, I guess, uh a um a work in progress to get from point A to point B. Point A being 100% time and materials, point B being 100% managed services. And there's lots and lots and lots of little spaces and gaps in between. Yeah, I think you hit on a really important point that that I find sometimes doesn't occur to people and that they're really hot and heavy, want to get started on an MSP model and they run out there and and start selling contracts based on some numbers, maybe they've thrown together. Hopefully they've at least sort of put some thought towards what their actual cost of operation is and you know, what potentially what is the run rate for support of a particular client. But I think a lot of people skip past the step of actually developing a product offering, which is what you mentioned. I think that's a really important piece to make sure that you're you have some some uh forethought about what you're actually putting together as an offering to go out to the market and sell. And hopefully, you know, you're you're testing that in trying to sell to the existing client base. But I think that that's a really important component that you just don't go out there and just start offering contracts to people and see if it works. Because then you're potentially putting yourself at risk for those situations where, oh, wow, this is a lot more work than maybe we anticipated, right? Correct. And uh one of the things that I have seen some smaller MSPs do and I I will admit that I did this way back in the early days back 10, 12 years ago was we had we had a a group of clients. So we had I think I probably had maybe 40 or 50 clients on the books and we were we were a small maybe three people at that stage, two or three people. We were 100% break fix, time and materials. We were giving clients ridiculously quick support, even though they weren't paying us for a managed service agreement or an SLA in advance. And uh for me to try and figure out back then how on earth to price and package this stuff, I did just come up with the I think it's going to be this. I'm going to poke a little finger in the air and see which way the wind is flying today and come up with a price that I thought it might be for a couple of clients that we've been talking about it with. And we put it out there and we we closed those clients. That meant we were probably too cheap because they they all signed up super eager. Uh but that was a really good pivotal process point for us because it allowed us to realize that there is a need for this and it is easy to sell. And now we've got this predictable recurrable income that it wasn't super profitable at that stage, but we weren't losing money on it. And so we were learning and that learning was super, super valuable to me back then and we were learning about what's what's profitable, what's not, what should be included, what shouldn't be included. And so sometimes people spend too long trying to figure out that process and make that jump. My encouragement is go and make that jump with a couple of key people where where the risk is low. Sure, there's always going to be risk. There's always risk in business in anything we do, but look for a couple of couple of people where the risk is low. Go and poke your finger in the air if you've got to, ask around some peers, jump into a community or two and ask for a little bit of help, but then just go and do it and start and and realize that the lessons you are going to learn out of that will vastly offset any potential lower profit or even hopefully not, but hopefully any potential loss that you make out of those first couple of agreements. Yeah, it's a really good point. Uh just starting people often end up in sort of this analysis paralysis where they're spending a year and a half like researching the perfect model to get out there and and start selling and they really miss the opportunity to just get started and and as you say, starting with a few safe clients and testing the waters, I think is a really good approach. One of the other ones that you mentioned, I think uh is worth noting because I see this particularly when people are are stuck in the hybrid model where they're doing TNM plus they have MSP agreements or uh for MSP clients is that they're treating both of those clients the same. They they run them through the same service stream. So the uh the TNM client calls in and if it's a quick fix, they jump straight on it and you know, that potentially cues up and sets a longer wait time for uh for an MSP client. And I think that's really detrimental. I think people need to get it through their head that they're these are two separate service streams. And what I often advise to people is you can in a way use that as a sales lever to tell the TNM clients like, hey, sorry, you know, I've got we've got some priority stuff to work on here. Uh you can phrase it really well to not upset them, but make them recognize that they're they're kind of on a secondary uh list and the other clients are in priority queue. And that can be really valuable as a as a conversation after the service has been completed. I absolutely love this topic because I I believe that that the vast majority of MSPs have scope to completely improve this area here. And and what I what I am typically recommending people do is you've obviously got your your managed service clients, whether you call them your premium clients, your fixed fee agreement clients, whatever it is. You you've got them under some sort of banner. Your casual clients, you can call them your your your ad hoc clients, you can call them your ad hoc clients, your casual clients, whatever they are. They're in a different bucket. And as you touched on, you should absolutely have two different service levels for them. Your managed service clients should be on an SLA. That SLA should be fast response times or whatever it is. You've got one hour for critical issues or whatever you have. If a time and materials client support request comes in, that should go against either a no SLA or some sort of completely different internal SLA that you never talk to the clients about, you just manage internally so that you can can figure stuff out. Now, when you're first starting out in this process, if you're an existing MSP that has been doing time and material for many, many years and has set expectations around quick support for many years, you can't just go and flip the switch overnight to an SLA and tell all your time and material clients that they're not getting an SLA anymore. It's not fair. You're the one you're the one that set the bad expectations. So it's the onus is more on you to help guide them through that transition journey. And so one of the ways that you can do that is over a over six months, maybe a year, maybe 18 months, it took us probably 18 months to go through this process. We slowly made a bigger gap between our support levels of our managed service clients, everybody that had signed on a managed service agreement and what we called our casual clients. However, when we we had to make sure that we had the conversation with every one of those casual clients that our managed service agreement plans were available. So we weren't just providing them less support without giving them an option into something else. And so over time, that was a a slow transition because I'm a bit of a I don't like making fast snap decisions for my clients. I like to try and lead them on a journey. So over time, we uh we stretched that gap and we actually had them up on our service board, our metrics and numbers up on our our knock screens in the office where we could see our our premium clients and our response times on them and we could see our casual clients and our response time separate to them. And our mantra over that that 12 to 18 months was to to slowly stretch the gap between what we're doing on each of them. Now, one of the things that we introduced that worked really, really, really well during that transition period was what we called an emergency uplift or an emergency increase. And that was for the the time and materials clients that didn't want to go on a managed service agreement for some way shape or form or that decided not to at that point in time. If they ever needed quick support, which often they do, they have a server down or whatnot, then we our we would always go to them and say, hey, you're a casual client or whatever it is. The current wait time for you guys is maybe tomorrow or maybe the next day because we didn't want to be interrupt driven by these guys that that hadn't uh hadn't aligned with our new the new way we were doing business. However, if you would like us to deal with this particular issue at an SLA level, then we've got this emergency upgrade or priority assist or whatever you like to call it fee that will add on to it. And you can do it either on a once-off cost per ticket. So you can say for an extra $200 on this ticket, we're going to increase it to a 25-minute response or half an hour response time or hour response time or whatnot. Or you could just increase the rate that you charge for that emergency work. You could say emergency work is at 1.5 times our normal rate. Otherwise, it just goes at the back of our queue or at the behind all of our our premium clients because they're the guys that are paying us in advance to make sure that we're providing a a reliable and stable service. And that worked quite well. And case in point is that we used to have a this particular client that I remember really well in that they were owned by a um a very large Japanese company that that believed in not signing agreements and didn't want recurring stuff sitting on their books. However, they needed a lot of work. And so we didn't want to say no to them because they kept buying $15,000 blocks of time very regularly. And they also bought a lot of those emergency upgrade things because we weren't able to do any proactive work on their network, which meant that there was always problems. For us, we were more than happy taking that money in the door, helping them out the best we possibly could in our terms, on our terms. So that if a particularly emergency like a particularly critical issue came through, they would pay us to upgrade that to an emergency issue and we'd jump on it pretty quickly, which is okay. We we were earning money on it. It was on our terms. It meant that we could still look after the rest of our clients properly. We had enough money to support if we had to bring contractors in to go and deal with the job and and it worked quite well in that instance. So I'm a bit of a fan in of of a hybrid approach where you do manage services is ultimately where you want to get everybody to if you can. Sometimes through a transition period or whether you've got clients like that, you can't get to 100%. And if you can make it happen and work on your terms, then quite often it's okay to leave around as long as you are not doing it at the detriment of your managed service growth and and um clients. Yeah, I I 100% agree. That's often how I describe it to people is you can do TNM as long as it's not a distraction to the core business and that needs to be uh something that is held very highly in the company and make sure that you're really true to that and not just sort of falling victim to the the urgency of the now, right? So we we touched on SLAs. Uh I I find that this is something that often lacks or sort of the adherence to or understanding of the need for is a bit missing in the those emerging companies that are are moving from that consulting model to a managed model. Uh is that something that that you see a resistance to as well? Just people maybe not understanding the purpose of it or feeling like it's it's not it's it kind of games the numbers and it's not really a legitimate measure of of the support. Yeah, to a degree. It is uh like especially for smaller MSPs, we look at it and go, oh, it's a bit scary now that I've got to commit to something. The reality is that most smaller MSPs that are transitioning or most smaller break fix companies that are transitioning to an SLA are already providing a greater level of service than what most MSPs are selling as their standard SLA out there. They're already doing 5 to 10 minute response times, guaranteed response times on on low-level issues, on normal issues. If somebody wants a new user, they'll jump in and and set it up within a half an hour. And so I say to them, if that's what you're already doing, why are you worried about guaranteeing that at a lower level to clients? And what what you're essentially doing is clients, you've probably had an unwritten conversation with your clients at the moment in setting those expectations around that existing. And so they already expect it. What you're doing when you start to insert official rules or or regulation or whatever you call it, guidelines around your SLA in your MSP is you're just having that conversation properly with the clients where you're saying, okay, Mr. or Mrs. client, we know that you guys as part of your business, you want to know that you've got access to support available in a reasonable time frame. So what we're going to do in this managed service agreement is make sure that we guarantee that. And if we don't, you guys have got rights to kick us up the rear end with our dollars. And uh that's all it is. It's something simple. Make sure if you're in your managed service agreement, you don't want it so that somebody can cancel their entire month's managed service agreement or get a refund on the entire month if you miss one point of an SLA. You want to be able to limit your liability there by by something like um maximum of X number of dollars or X number of percent per SLA thing missed. The vast the the reality is in the SMB game, nobody on the other end is tracking. They just want to know that it's there and it exists. That's all they want to do. They're not track they're not sitting there with a timer going, this person's got three more minutes to to before I'm going to hit them up for a refund because they're just worried about their business. They're working on their things. So essentially it's just an expectation setting tool and just a way for you to help deliver and show the value of a managed service agreement to a client in that you are guaranteeing this. And it's also helps hold you internally accountable to delivering a really good level of service out to your clients or a quick level of service out to your clients. Yeah, I agree. That's the part I find is actually the most valuable in utilizing SLAs is the internal uh mechanics that it produces and forcing people to be conscious of those actions and making sure that they're queuing and scheduling and prioritizing tickets accordingly. The reporting to the client is important after the fact, but as you say, no one's really going to notice that stuff unless, you know, a ticket disappears for two days and someone starts stomping their feet. Yeah, correct. And uh that that important, sorry, that internal stuff is, as I said, even for us, we had an internal SLA for casual clients. We didn't advertise that to anybody apart from ourselves just so that we could figure out what those numbers were and we could manage them. And we could manage them in relation to our SLA for our managed clients. And even with our managed clients, our SLA internally was less than what we advertised. Just to make sure that we had a little bit of buffer in there to make sure that we were we were kind of keeping on our toes. All right. So what are some other areas of friction or people uh areas of struggle for people as they transition to the MSP model from uh TNM and uh pay for play? Okay, so here's here's two big ones. Number one is that you see a lot of people out there in the world saying you have to go pure play MSP straight away or you're an idiot. And unfortunately, that just comes from a a background of some people out there that are full of ego that are just going like my way or the highway. Uh I did it, so you should be able to as well. The reality is, we're all different. We've all got different mindsets, we've all got different ways that we approach business, we've all got different speeds that we run in business. And so, so one of my encouragement there is is do it on your speed. Obviously, push yourself and challenge yourself. But if somebody else is out there saying, I transitioned overnight and uh and it was fine, I had no problems. Don't make that your modus operandi as well because it may drive you mad and you may get to the point where you you're not going there and then you you just beat up on yourself and you're down on yourself because you weren't able to copy somebody else. What you need to do is just take inspiration from other people and their journeys and their processes and whatnot and figure out how you can craft and guide your own journey that that you can be accountable to and you can you can fulfill rather than trying to get into this comparison mode. Because that leads me into the second thing. So that's the first thing, don't compare as you go through the process, figure out your your journey, figure out what's going to work for you, your mindset, your clients, your speed of doing business. Uh obviously, you always want to be pushing yourself a little bit in there. You don't want to be trying to do it too slow because you'll you'll get overtaken by by someone else out there. But push yourself, but don't don't beat yourself up if you're you're falling in this comparison mode with someone else. The second thing is that that I see as a big struggle out there is that people can't afford to to do too much of it at the moment. They can't afford to weed their garden and get rid of their clients or they believe they can't afford to weed their garden and get rid of clients that aren't a right fit at the moment. And that has there's kind of two two things about that. Yes, they are right, but yes, they are wrong at the same time. And what I mean by that is, yes, you're going through this process, you've got X number of dollars coming in the door, you don't have any any maybe available working capital in the business to tide you over for a couple of months if you do make some some weeding out there. However, what what you've got to look at is when you do get rid of a a client that's sucking up your energy in some way shape or form, be it that you you know that they're not going to transition to manage services and they're a bit of a pain on on break fix or whatnot. They are taking up mental energy from you at the moment. They're taking up mental energy and mental cycles and and they're taking your thought patterns away from doing good stuff in your business. And so when you get rid of them, don't just look at the dollar impact that it may be walking out the door as you go through this process. Really take into account what that mental energy is going to free you up to do to your existing clients. Now, that may mean that you can go and maybe you've got a $500 or $1,000 a month client that's just been driving you mad or $2,000 a month client that's time and materials been driving you mad. You're going, I really need this money at the moment, but you're looking around at your other client base that you absolutely love and you can see all this opportunity that you're not diving into. Opportunity to increase their scope or provide different services or whatnot. If you gave yourself back that mental energy for a month, you will quite often have the time, you'll find the time and you'll find the energy to go and dive into all those other opportunities and fill that gap pretty quickly within a month or within two months. And so don't as you're going through, perhaps just look for opportunities like that where where you can see a where you can you know that someone's got to go. Go and just take that little risk and go and do it and uh and know that you're you're freeing yourself up to go and get some better dollars in the door from your other clients if that makes sense. It was kind of a roundabout way to explain it, but hopefully that that came across. Yeah, I think uh I agree on the point that if you're going to transition, it won't happen overnight. There's a significant risk to the business if you're going to cut out, you know, 50% of your clients or more. Uh that's going to put you on thin ice for most people as they're trying to grow a business. What I typically suggest to people is that you can assume that 20% will not work anyway. Uh and though you you should uh adjust your expectations that if you have a client base that you're going to convert to MSP, that the entire lot will not come with you and that's okay. It just depends on how you approach that. And I think what you hit on is a really important point is that uh the the dollars are sort of an an after the thought after the matter thought. Uh and the amount of of actual money that you make, the profit from that that contract is much, much more important. So it doesn't matter that they pay you $8,000 a month uh on uh or I guess if it's a TNM client, maybe it's $1,800 a month on occasion, maybe $200 another month. Uh you have to look at how taxing it is to the overall business. And what I often find is that there's a lot of those clients both in the TNM and the MSP space where the it's just not worth it. The the the whole tech team size with relief when you actually go through and cut some of those people. And we used to go through an exercise in in the MSP that I worked at where uh we would have a a top five list of of companies that are not loved, right? And it wasn't that they were terrible, but on occasion, there was good reason to let one of those those people go or if they left on their own terms, it was maybe not taken uh as as uh critically as it otherwise could have. So churn is going to be a natural part of the business and if you're going to adjust your business model, you have to expect that churn comes with that. And that's why, you know, as we've we're talking about here, transitioning into this steadily and growing by selling those MSP contracts to replace the ones that don't serve you from a TNM basis are going to be the best way to to build that bridge to the next stage of your business. Yeah, I 100% agree. And one of the things that you call it the crazy universe or the rules of the universe or whatever it is, out of the again, the 15 years that I've been in the industry and the the clients that I have fired or or helped move along or and all the clients that I work with, the MSPs that I work with, all of their clients that they move on, 100% of the time, if they move a client on that's not a right fit, within one to two to three to four months, they have filled that gap with a better client and or more revenue. That is, I don't know what it is. Who knows this whether there's woo woo behind that or whatever it is, but it happens nearly 100% of the time in that you get rid of that that mental energy, it frees you up to then go out and find someone that's better to fill their place. And it and it happens all the time. Yeah, I find the the people that are not uh willing to sort of bridge that gap, I I find they're often the impediment to the business more so than uh the the actual reasons that they self-justify with. And you you you sort of nailed it that uh the people that sort of have some level of faith in this and they believe in what they're actually trying to uh operate as their business model, it comes to fruition. But the people that maybe don't uh don't sort of manage that that gap as well are the ones that just refuse to believe, right? And not that it has to be faith-based in any sense, but uh you know, other people are successful in doing this in any size market. You don't have to be in a major city like Sydney, New York, London, Tokyo, whatever, to to be uh successful at this business model. There are people that are running very successful MSPs in very small markets. And it's really just about finding that segment that is willing to pay the value according to what you're going to serve. Correct. Yeah, and then focusing 100% on them and loving on them. It's even in a I've heard of recently a an MSP at a small market, a super small market. I think it was 30 to 50,000 people population in that market and they were running a seven-figure MSP in that market because they had just focused on loving in their community and serving on their community and being well-known in their community and they attracted all the right businesses and all the good businesses in their community and they owned that that marketplace. So it absolutely can be done. You can build a a seven figure and I think it was I've got a feeling it was multi-seven figures that they were they were running their business in in a small 30,000 community. Obviously that probably had some ancillary communities around that, but obviously they weren't big. So that's an important point. I think um it hits on one of the the points of pushback that I hear in this transition model is people say, you know, well, we can't do that because, you know, our clients won't pay those rates. Uh is that something that you feel is a lie that people tell themselves or is there some legitimate uh pushback in in do they have the wrong clients maybe or are they just telling themselves a a complete falsity and haven't even had that discussion with the clients at all? 80% of it is a lie. 20% of it, there's there's some some truth, no doubt in certain situations where where certain clients just cannot pay. Uh certain types of clients like that one I was talking about will not pay a managed service agreement. Uh however, a lot of the onus is also on you to educate your clients and your prospects around why as well. And a lot of people, a lot of small business owners especially, still do not understand the benefits of a managed service agreement and why it is better for their business in the long run and what that there actually is ROI in it. It's not just a line item that shows up on their P&L as computer expenses. It's actually a line if you're providing a really good managed services and you're helping out with higher value things like technology adoption and education and whatnot. You're not just fixing their computer problems, you are helping them run a better business more efficiently by using the great technology tools that they've got access to. And that there is where where that's your job is to go and educate those clients around that that IT is not just an expense. So sure it can show up as an expense on your P&L, but it's an investment and a very strategic investment if you guys can take that kind of walk up the value ladder to be more of a, you call it trusted advisor or or whatever you want to call it. That term gets thrown around a lot. Uh but wherever you take it, it's more taking that kind of step up the ladder to be able to help them grow and run a better business using the technology that's available. And that's that that onus is on you to go and educate the clients around that to make sure that they do believe and understand and see the value of what managed services is and what technology adoption is. Well, this is some great knowledge. I really appreciate the the conversation and hopefully this has been enlightening for people potentially making this transition or struggling as they're in the transition. Uh any other resources or uh uh areas that you would suggest people take a look at as they look to grow their MSP practice? When I first started through this process 10 years ago, it would have been now, I uh I read a great book who many you you will know Carl Palachuk and many other MSPs know Carl Palachuk. He's kind of the grand popper of our industry and managed services. And uh he wrote a book managed services in a month. And if you haven't read that, there's some really good little tips and tricks and strategies in there to help you go through the process. Uh I think the title might be a little bit of a of a play on words because no one has ever done it in a month or maybe Carl has and maybe a few other people have. Uh I certainly didn't and most people that I know didn't. But uh but the the the onus behind it and the the the stuff behind it in that book is really good. So if you haven't read that yet, go and grab Carl Palachuk's managed services in a month book. Uh if you need help structuring plans and whatnot, I'm going to do a bit of a shameless plug here to to our tech tribe. I run a community called the Tech Tribe. Uh there's a there's a private coaching section that you get access to in there where you can ask me for for brainstorming or help or help or input or critique on your managed service agreement plans if you want some help in there. Uh so you can go and check that out. We've got a special page for you, Todd, with a set of steak knives thrown in and and all of that after hours uh stuff that people sell on late night TV shows. Uh if you head to the techtribe.com/todd, uh I think the deal that we put there was that you can get 40% off your first month. Something like that and we'll because we come from because Todd's referring you, we we send a little bit of um we send some good out to a charity each time somebody joins through Todd's special link. Outside of that, go and listen to that book, go and talk to your peers, go and as I said, just get started. Go and get started and just start learning your lessons. There's going to be tons of lessons in there and it is perfectly okay to make a mistake as long as it doesn't send you out of business. You want to make calculated mistakes, but go and start making those mistakes and go and start learning those lessons because that stuff is invaluable to you as you go through this process. Excellent stuff. Appreciate your time, Nigel. And uh thanks for coming on the show. Thank you.