ERP107 - Digital Health and Productivity

Joel, welcome to the Evolved Radio podcast. Thanks, Todd. Great to be here. So we'll get straight into it. You're pretty recognized in the industry at this point. But for the those that are maybe not familiar or need a refresher, you wanna give us a quick bit of background on you and your your story? Yeah. Absolutely. Well, my my time in the MSP space dates back right alongside yours as we work together, what was it, 10, 12 years ago now? But, yeah, I've been in the space for my whole career and was lucky enough to join Chris Day and yourself at Fully Managed and, kind of worked worked to build that MSP up and, you know, led the eventual exit of that company to TELUS in 2022 with about 500 staff. So definitely cut my teeth in in scaling, an MSP and working alongside, you know, great great folks like Chris Day and and Mark Scott, my 2 partners in in this venture, as well as, our fund, TopDown Fund 1, and all the various companies that we support with Scalepad and Quoter and backup radar over the years. So, I've had a had great exposure in the MSP space for a long time. I'm very thankful to to be here and continuing to do our part to forge the path forward. So maybe just a quick aside on this as well like, I think a lot of people in the industry are definitely familiar with Scalepad and and sort of the the products that are underneath the the Scalepad, entity. Do you wanna can you talk a bit about sort of Top down and and the company that, that oversees some of the the direction there and how that relates to the group of companies? Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, so TopDown started in 2018, by Chris Day after his exit of IT Glue to Kaseya. And it was his way of, you know, reinvesting back into the MSP software community. So he cofounded Scalepad or at the time Warranty Master with his brother, Anthony. He invested in a company called Quoter and invested in a company called Backup Radar. And from 2020, 2021, Scalepad was was growing quite rapidly. And so we brought in some external capital from a group called Integrity Growth Partners. They've been great partners, to scale to help scale Scalepad, up and, you know, the capital partner for 7 acquisitions. And now Scalepad's, yep, big big company, number of different products, incredible kind of evolving platform, 230 employees. And, but, yeah, top down kind of, you know, behind the scenes has been supporting, not only Scalepad, but also, you know, the various other companies I mentioned, as well as Control Map and a couple of other non MSP software companies. And then most recently, we're actually launching a a venture capital fund, for MSP software companies. And so Mark Scott has come in with Chris and myself to be our 3rd partner. And, we're super excited to do the public launch of that over the next couple of months. So stay tuned on that one. We're not not totally ready to to bring that one out to the world, but it certainly is coming, and we're excited to get the whole MSP community planned there as well for sure. So, focus for today is one of the the companies, sort of in your in your portfolio is produce 8. So an emerging product, maybe not as familiar or have sort of the street recognition as a a scale pad. And I think a place to start that I, because this sort of goes core to this being a very different approach to both a software product in the MSP space but also a different approach to what you could argue is already an established, bit of software but sort of really runs counter to the way that we need to go, go about this. So, before we get too into what the product is, I really wanna understand sort of where where you were, and what was sort of the thought around this. Like, you had, conversations I assume with with Ryan, one of the cofounders around this this product and he said like this is it. This is this is something that absolutely needs to come to the market. What was your thinking around that? And I think that that'll help explain sort of what the product is and why it's different in my mind. Yeah. Well, as as an operating MSP, you you rely on the innovation around you from all of your various vendors to make the best selection of products and and drive your business forward. You know, on the heels of IT Glue started to create new products that, you know, are trying to look around the corner and understand what MSPs needs are gonna be down the line. And so produce 8 came about. I was actually attending a really, really interesting talk from a couple of PhD professors at Berkeley. And, they were talking about productivity in the 20th 21st century and and the impact of technology on it. And, they they I'll never forget. They put up this slide, and it showed productivity increases, in the US. I mean, it was just a rising chart growing and growing and growing. And then it peaked, and it flatlined. And there was what they talked about a lot of the different things were going on at that peak and and our inability to break through that ceiling. And at the time, you know, they they were hypothesizing around open office concepts. And, the release of the iPhone, that was a big one. That it was just there was a lot of distraction starting to happen to the average knowledge worker. And and as a result, despite the the massive improvements in the software that we were using, we actually weren't getting any more productive as as a a working society. And that just it stopped me in my tracks, Todd. And I was like, how is this possible? You know, I spend my career enabling end users to to use all these different products and work in a fluid IT environment and kind of felt like it it was all for nothing. We were just keeping the lights on if we weren't getting any more productive. So I became obsessed with with kind of diving into this problem and looked at all the different players in the space and what they were doing and what they weren't doing and what was making them successful. There were some great incumbent companies that had built great products that served a lot of different needs around employee monitoring and and understanding what was going on on the desktop because on the surface, it doesn't seem like a difficult thing to solve. Like, you know, at least we're working on machines. So let's just track everything on the machine, and and, there you go. But then then, you know, this this other, you know, avenue sort of intersected with that, yeah, this problem that that I was toiling over. And it was the the pandemic hit, and, everybody went home. And I I often, you know, I often pontificate that if the pandemic had occurred 10 years earlier, I mean, imagine as the pandemic had happened when you and I first met Todd. Like, our customers would have been in absolute disarray as an MSP because half of them probably didn't have, you know, a VPN set up. They weren't built for employees to work from home. So everybody would have been all over the place. So, like, everybody using BPOS or logging in, you know, terminal servicing into exchange servers to keep the you know, all these businesses going, it would have been chaos. And instead, nobody really talks about how smooth that transition was for everybody to go home and work in the cloud. It was it was unbelievable, like, from an IT guy to watch all this transpire. And so that wasn't the problem to solve, how to make sure everybody is working okay, in this this remote work environment. It was already solved for us because everybody was using the cloud or everybody was, you know, well well suited for that transition. But what kept CEOs up up at night in those first few months was, what are my people doing? They became, like, grossly uncomfortable with the fact that they couldn't see their people. And therefore, what were they doing? And granted, there was a lot of different stresses plaguing all of humankind around that time. But in general, people were were just like, what are my people doing? And they couldn't get comfortable with the idea that they were working at equivalent levels at home. And so I, you know, I was in a peer group and and I got, you know, put this question out. And so I was like, well, this is easy. I've been studying productivity for a while here. Just install one of these 3 platforms. You can do it silently. We can push it out through the RMM. No as an MSP. No problem. It'll bring back everything that your team is doing, and you can see it all right there. And I thought I was gonna, you know, nail 10 sign ups to a new product in that meeting. And all of them had this visceral reaction. I'm not spying on my people. I trust my managers. I would never install spyware on my team's machines. I was like, oh, okay. So they they don't they want visibility into what their team is doing or want some sort of, understanding or relationship or something. They want they don't even know what they're asking for if they don't if they won't install monitoring software on their machine. So so what's this missing middle here? And, that was, you know, around the time when I I started to really kind of think the problem through, with with Chris and and with Mark. And then there's this other intersection, of, you know, this personal obsession with our own health data. And here we are. We're trying to understand how many you know, what we're eating. So we're using this app. We're trying to understand how many calories we're burning. So we're using this app. We're trying to understand our sleep, so we're using this app. And us as tech guys, yourself included, I know, are now just obsessed with Yep. You know, understanding what's going on in their body. So we're looking at this this path. We're looking at the, you know, the remote work angle, and then we're looking at productivity. And so we said we gotta we gotta solve. We gotta figure out a better way to bring this data together around what people are doing and do it in a way that is actually productive for the end users as well as as the companies and and the employers. And so that's really what started what catalyzed that, produce 8. And the original, you know, working name of the company was WorkFor, because we're all kind of Tim Ferris fans. And we said, look, you know, 4 day work weeks coming up, the the 4 hour you know, some of our top guys, they're probably working remotely. They're probably only working 4 hours a day, but they're absolutely crushing it. So is that okay? I think it's okay if if they're still producing 8 hours of work. But let's, like, let's try and figure out what they're doing so we can disseminate that that knowledge throughout the rest of the organization. And I know this is a long build up here, so I'll wrap it up here. But, you know, the next things that happened were really interesting because then we started we started trying to solve for this problem. So we started building. We brought the initial team together. And then we started to get some data back from the pandemic, and people were actually working more hours. Okay. So now one of our inputs is disrupted. People are working more hours. So the whole what are my people are doing? They're actually working more. They're producing less. So productivity started to decline. Again, lots of macro environmental factors, but the reality is they're working more hours and producing less. And then this third, vector came in, which people were getting burnt out at much higher rates. And so, you know, this is all these things coming together for, you know, just to to fuel our desire to solve the problem or at least, you know, start to take things back in the other direction. Okay. Cool. That's a great sort of background. I love and I love this. Like, it sort of sets up a bunch of the things that I wanted to visit on here. And I think the first is, like, guilty as charged. I, you know, I am a, you know, an old school biohacker, you know, quantified self. You know, I got my Oura ring. I've got my Apple Watch. You know, my wife gives me a hard time about how much I obsess over my data in the morning, all of those things. Right? I've I've made dramatic lifestyle changes to sort of, based on the data that was given to me around things that I knew were true, you know, like I cut back drinking because, like, once I had an Oura ring I could not lie to myself about the impact that it had. Right? So, like, I I love sort of the description of the produce a produce a product as more of sort of a digital health score. Right? And I think it's it helps to understand how this is distinct and different than, like, the other tools that are, you know, for lack of a better description, they're kinda spy ware. And I'm sure, like, you've been in those circumstances where, you know, a, sort of a borderline ethical client asks you to install some some monitoring software to track employees and things like that. And it's it is a very sort of strange ethical dilemma. And I like the fact that this is done in such a more transparent fashion and really goes towards, sort of the things that you learned. It's like, I've always hated the term, right, I need my I need to see my people to know that they're productive, like, that was never true in the first place. Right? People can be just as lazy and unproductive sitting in their desk as they are at home. So I I always bristled against that idea of like I need to see my people as a management style. As a management consultant, it just rubbed me the wrong way all the time. So, you know, getting this this this quantifiable data to understand, you know, what are people working on and, you know, there's a big difference between effort and results and you sort of you noted this around people are working longer. They may feel that they're working harder but they're producing less, right? So like how does that square? And that's not something that you can fix for someone. And I think that goes to sort of one of the key aspects of of this product is is that this has to be a collaborative problem to be solved. Like you can't just say to people, you know, I need you to work harder. And they're like, Ugh, like God, if my boss tells me this one more time. Why aren't you working better? Yeah. Exactly. What does this even mean? Right? And I often describe this to junior managers as a really strong problem. Right? Because it's such a disconnect around, you know, I'm working hard is their perception around sort of a subjective experience and the manager has a different subjective experience of I don't think think you're working hard enough. And neither of those are correct. Like there's sort of the three sides to the truth. Right? But what does the data say? What are we producing? What is that relative to other people? What is that relative to previous performance? And I think those factors are so much more important to understand of like what have we done? What are we trying? What are we experimenting with? And in this age of distraction, it's a massive massive problem. Right? Like the number of people that are just, like, completely drawn into teams notifications and DM hell in in a modern organization is a very very strong problem. And like a lot of these, these metrics are really helpful around this of understanding, like, have I been able to focus this week? Why or why not? How much time have I spent in meetings versus actually working in a line of business product? These are much more helpful than, you know, the traditional measures of like, you know, did that person leave before 5 o'clock? Like, is that an effective measure of whether or not they're working hard? I don't think so. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, look. I mean, you're you're, yeah, you're you're hitting on a number of points, which, you know, through our our 3 plus years of research now have have really surfaced up. And, you know, the first and most impactful one for me is that, like, there's there's no debating the fact that all the social media apps are are designed to just consume attention. Right? It extends out to the the gaming apps, you know, these infinite game plays, like roadblocks are even our kids are are working in these environments that are just you know, they're they're calibrated and built from the ground up to hold your attention and pull you back in. And that's the reality of the consumer devices that that we work with. But what what we've nobody talks about is the fact that our work technology actually has a lot of the same attributes. It's all attributes. It's all fighting for your attention to get you back into that application, whether it's a Slack notification over here or Zoom's, you know, a Zoom chat or, an app notification in Asana. It's all trying to pull you back into those systems to have, you know, more of your your mind share. And it's it's if you don't just like on your personal mobile device, if you don't take control of that, you're just gonna, you know, be a a victim and and, you know, your time is gonna get eaten up by all of those things competing for your attention, which is is ultimately this huge layer of distraction from what you're actually trying to do or is it any intentional work or any deep work. So that's a a really interesting starting point is just to understand it. And I I always go back to, you know, if you you talk about the the habit building. And for me, it's as simple as write down everything you eat for the next 2 days. Are you gonna make slightly better decisions if you have to write down what you're eat with the intention of obviously improving? If you wanna see how many calories you can eat, that's a And you'll start to make little micro adjustments or maybe you'll, you know, And you'll start to make little micro adjustments, or maybe you'll you'll actually say, you know what? I'm not gonna eat that, you know, 6 pack of doughnuts because I gotta write it down, and I'm gonna have to, you know, hold be accountable to that later on or take a photo. So that's the the first layer is just awareness. And that's like, you know, what what you see the same day that you start using the produce 8 platform is you just start to see that back, and you're like, wow. And there's you can make big decisions. The the the box of donut decisions is you know what? I know I'm not needed in this meeting, but I attend it every single week. And now it's just sitting there in my face. I could easily read them. It's I haven't spoken that meeting in 6 months. I don't need to spend 90 minutes in that meeting. And we, you know, we talk about the 90 minutes back. There's your 1st day's 90 minute facts right there. Probably, it's a weekly meeting. It's Every every time you're trying to clear all the gold out of Slack or every time you're, you know, infinitely scrolling somewhere else in your work environment. You start to see how much time just bleeds out. And there's there's lots of uses for the repurposement of that time. It can be back into the work that, you, you know, you you you haven't been that that you wanna spend it in, or maybe it's that you get your workday done a little bit quicker. And you actually get out there and and do some things that you haven't been able to do because you're so burdened. And then you're starting to impact the burnout and all that. So there's so many positive use cases for technology like this. You know, it's it's tough to to cover even a, you know, a small port of portion of them in a session like this. But you start to see that whether you're looking at work technology designed to distract us, collaboration or over collaboration or just, you know, the lack of respect of everybody's time with with with meetings, remote meetings, task switching, or just the impact on burnout. Very quickly, you can see by just pulling some basic awareness to to your day, how you can make positive changes. Yeah. And I think all of those things are are excellent. Just the the quantitative data to make informed Right? Like, I I kinda relay the story of, like, I I couldn't justify drinking as much. Not that I don't drink anymore, but I certainly drink a lot less. Similarly, you know, how do I actually spend my day? And whenever I talk to people that are like, they you always run into people in techno in the technology space who are are totally overwhelmed. And, like, I won't go on my band busy rant, but people always describe I'm too busy. Right? And it's, like, well, what does busy mean? And, like like, what do you mean by that? Right? Like, are you working on the right things? And one of the things I often, subscribe to people is do a time audit. And this is just a simpler way to do that. Right? Like, you run this tool and it it collects information about what you're doing so you can reflect on it and go, Really? Like, I thought I felt like I was crazy busy today, but that's actually sort of a lower level of engagement that I've had in in previous days. And one of the other aspects that I think is important about sort of p eight being different, again, like, I I want people to not sort of lump this into, you know, employee tracking. It's like there's contained data that you see individually. Right? What are what are my personal sort of digital health score stats? And I see this, you know, emails you every day to tell you you can actively review this stuff. And then you can actively subscribe to a workspace where you collect you collectively share things that are line of business apps. You know, how much time did you spend in a ticketing system? How much time did you spend in in teams? Those sorts of things. So there's the distinction between the personal insights that you have and the team data that you're willing to share. The subscription aspect of the apps that are collected information is collected on I think is a huge distinction in this. Right? But it just goes to that idea of like there's a lot of personal data here that I think can be really really helpful. And what we're touched on is like staff engagement is absolutely plummeting across the board. Right? This is a huge huge issue in businesses all across, the the business world. And I I think, like, there's various reasons as to why, you know, like, you've dug into a lot of this data. What do you what are sort of your suspicions around why that engagement has has dropped so much probably in the last, you know, since the pandemic, but it was on a steady decline certainly before that. Do you have any thoughts on that? I got I got lots of thoughts, but let's, you know, let's be so one of the dangerous, traps about talking about producing is is it can go you can go totally broad across all knowledge workers because, you know, there's there's various trends that affect everybody. And that's our big vision is is that we can get this out into the world for all knowledge workers. That's a that's a $1,000,000,000,000 problem, and we're not shy to go out and solve big problems. But we do, we do, you know, have a ton of respect and appreciation for the space that we've come from being MSP. And so one of the very intentional things that we're doing with produce 8 is bringing it to MSPs first to solve that problem, bringing it to MSPs to bring to their customers so they can be future of work experts and and have those, you know, bring them innovative products. It's not just, you know, email and another cybersecurity product. So we're being very intentional about that. So I'm going to answer that question talking about MSPs because, I've got lots of thoughts around, you know, why general workforce, engagement is declined. But let's let's talk about Well, let's so let me let me let me square that for you. Right? Because, like, industry stats that I've seen and and validated against the the groups that I work with is is 20 to 30% decline in productivity in MSPs. So, like, it's that's based on real data. Right? Yeah. Yeah. So we're seeing that in in, billable hours. We're seeing it in the in ticket close rates. And you you you and I I mean, you you can reminisce with me on some of our top performers. And so imagine if our top performers now were 20 or 30% less effective and productive, and and you can very quickly see, you know, a big problem there. And so we we know that the MSP game is hard. The MSP game is is really challenging for, you know, those those folks that are growing up in the space and solving problems day in and day out. I I often joke that nobody ever called and and thanked me for the job that I was doing as an MSP operator. And that's not true. We had lots of very, very grateful and awesome customers. But, you know, that you're in the problem solving business. And so that that wears on you. And it's, you're in an infinite arms race as well as, you know, that, you know, 10 years ago, it was ransomware. And, you know, now it's, you know, these big massive phishing attacks. And there's a there's just always you're always on onto the next something. And so, yeah, it's a it's a very tough business and and the so how did how did the, you know, the MSP how's the MSP vendor community try and solve for that? Well, they solve for it by more automation and better tools and, all these things that are, you know, designed to make MSPs' lives better. The reality is that humans struggle to actually shift attention between manual and automated tasks. And so as we we infiltrate more and more automation into our problem solving environments, it's actually not like something that that is super easy for technicians to say, I'm gonna help solve you with something, and then I'm gonna jump into this automation thing. It's actually not the way that the that that we're wired. So we're actually, you know, putting more weight on the, on the the service technician's, shoulders. The more that we evolve the industry. So it's a really interesting problem to face. And then you think about kind of this whole first of all, you're you're totally distributed. And so you're if you're in a hybrid work environment, the the top guys are constantly being pinged by everybody else to understand, you know, to trade, which is great. You want information dissemination. And if you think back to you know, if you're in a in an office environment, you're on the on the service desk floor, there's a lot of collaboration, which is great. And it exists inside of Slack too Teams too, which is great. The problem is there's absolutely no visibility into it. So you have no idea that your top guy is getting pinged 45 times an hour because he doesn't complain about it because he's your top guy. But he's also, like, it's burdensome to be constantly, you know, getting inbound from from, you know, in an in controlled state. At least if there were 10 people huddled around your top service desk techs desk at all time, you'd see it. You'd be like, oh, hey. Like, maybe let's give this guy a break. But the reality is you just can't see all that flow inside an organization. So the access to each other, has has incredibly powerful as it is. The ability for me to just say, hey. Let's hop on a quick Zoom. You hop on the Zoom. You do the thing. You know? Just not that different than popping over to someone's desk, but it is. Right? And and it's at volume, and it's a totally different landscape. So that's where that's where I think some of this, you know, dissatisfaction at work comes about is because people generally feel out of control. They're shifting between things that their their brain isn't necessarily wired to do all the time, and there's there's no control of the inbound. And so it's it's actually when you when you really step back and think about it and you imagine all the lines of communication in your organization and all these things that that they're trying to do, it paints a pretty chaotic picture for what was already a pretty chaotic business as MSPs. And so again, yeah, just for us, the big goal is just try and try and contain it a little bit. Right? Try and understand it. Try and engage people on the journey of making it a little bit better selfishly for themselves and, you know, as a kind of flow through for your organization. We always we always say to people, imagine a world where 80% of your people are engaged in making themselves and the work environment better. And that is a very, very cool thought because, you know, the current state is most people are engaged in maybe making the business more profitable because of different goals you've set, maybe doing their job, but not necessarily in the improvement of of the the work environment and how the work happens. So we we think that that's a kind of cool thought. Yeah. I I I strongly agree with this. Like, that that burnout from just sort of the the overburdened with a lot of miscellaneous activities that are not necessarily, continuous and there's a lot of fragmentation in I would say prescriptively do less. Right? As what I often tell people like there's a lot of work that gets done especially in MSPs that produces no value for anybody and I think that that's a really strong problem. But again these are not the type of things that you can you can really surface any insight around unless you get to some level of data analysis. Right? Like, sure, you can kinda review some tickets but that's really ticket data. Does that speak to sort of the time they spent in teams and escalations they didn't tag their time on those tickets for, the number of meetings they were in, the number of, you know, client escalations that they fielded? Like, it's it's a lot more complex than sort of limited dataset that a lot of people are are sort of fundamentally working with. And it sort of goes to the second idea that I think is really foundational here is like, I think there's the burnout problem. The other problem that I think is actually super prevalent in the MSP space is is bored out. So there's burnout but there's also bored out. Right? Like, what are people actually working on? So I think there's there's a high contingent of people that are just not challenged by the work that they have on deck. And, like, how are you actually managing against those types of aspects? Right? Like, what are they working on through the course of the day? Is it to the level of the things that they should be working on? How do they if they're wanna be a highly technical person and they spend 6 hours a day in meetings and and other sort of administrative tasks, like, are they really that engaged? Right? So I think, it goes to this idea of, like, these problems need to be visible so that they can be solved. Right? And we don't really have the data to be able to wrap around this and and surface this and discuss it sort of openly as a team. And that's sort of again, this I think important distinction of of how PA approaches this is that none of this is punitive. Like, I don't wanna monitor you to make sure you're working. That's not the point. It's I wanna understand how you spend your time and more importantly, I wanna understand how we spend our time collectively. And is that the best use of our time? Right? And how how how are we able to focus? And if we're not focusing, how can we reform some of the internal policies to fix that? And that goes directly to some of the things that we've talked about. Like, changing the way that your team agrees to interact with each other on teams, I think is a really great way. Like, I've I've seen this surface by some people, working with with, with p eight and saying, like, okay, you know, like, every time I'm in teams, you know, I'm popping in and out. Like, I'm constantly sort of in and out. And so it's not like I'm tending a 60 8 60 minute meeting. Like, I'm always sort of flipping in and out between things and I'm caught in DM hell. Right? So all of a sudden you're able to see this and everyone's like, oh, yeah. That's what mine looks like too because you get, like, this timeline It shows you sort of your the the time you spend in certain products. And all of a sudden that's a lot more, it's good data to be able to say to the team, look. You guys, like, stop messaging each other whenever something comes to mind. Right? Like, this is a great first step. Like, people say, oh, you know, it's it's so easy. Like, would you just walk by someone's office and say, hey, when you've got 15 minutes, you know, can you help me out with such and such? And then you just literally walk away and don't even engage with them and they're like, wait, what? Hang on. What was I working on? Like, that's literally what we're doing when we DM each other about things that are not particularly important. Like catalog those things, put it in into an agenda somewhere so you can capture it, review it at a more focused time. So you can leave people to really focus on the work that they're doing. These are the types of things that I think are really important to sort of curb a bit of that burnout, but also to be able to dedicate more time to focus on what people want to and should be working on so that they're also not being bored out of their mind by working on menial things that don't really reward them in their career. Right? Totally. And and so, you know, the way that we tackle this is, you know, we we you could do once you have awareness, you understand what look work looks like. Then you can start to think what do I want work to look like. And then you can start to take intentional actions. You can set goals around, you know, really, really low hanging fruit just like how much time you spend in in Zoom or Slack or the collaboration stuff or email and batching and batching email time. All those things are are fairly low hanging fruit to me. To get to a state where we actually have a bit of control around what our individual day looks like, what our team's day, and our organization day. Because then you can start to do some really fun stuff. Like, what do I want the future of work at my organization to look like? What do I want? How do I want AI to impact my work? And so think about just setting a goal around, you know, AI usage in your in your team and just just to promote, like, exploration and say, look, everybody do do do 30 minutes a day. And just we're just gonna all throw a goal, and we're gonna do it for 2 weeks, and we're gonna see where we get to. And maybe we start solving some really big problems that we never actually gave our ourselves the room to solve for. And we're just doing it by skimming out the garbage on top. And that that is where it gets really exciting to me that you're actually gonna start to create more. And so however you you measure productivity in your organization, you can't can't really argue that if you're create if you're giving people the room to do more deep work or to do exploratory work with, you know, productivity enablers like AI, you're gonna you're gonna start to yield some pretty positive results. And that's that's what we're just you know, that's the starting point we're giving everybody with with the product today. It's just give yourself some room to start working and and, you know, taking back the work. Yeah. I think that's that's such an important aspect to this is that it has to be intentional. These things don't just magically happen on their own because of sort of best intentions. Like you you have to work as a management team, as a as a team, collaboratively to make time for these things, to spend effort on them, and to make it okay to spend time on these these things. So totally agree it has to be intentional. I guess like a final sort of thought on this is like a lot of people may feel like like like sure am I responsible for my staff's happiness? Probably not. You know, should you create an environment that allows them to be happy? Yes. You should probably think about that. Am I responsible for my my staff's productivity? Probably. Like, should you at least make an effort to to to make that transparent and support the team to be more effective and to to to sort of protect them against burnout, I think that's a really important aspect. But I can see how people would be comfortable with like, look, you know, I pay these people to come and do their job and I expect them to do their job. Like, how much support should I be giving them to do these things? Like, is this really my responsibility or should I just trust that people should do this stuff? I don't necessarily subscribe to that, but I can imagine some people may feel that way. You have any thoughts on it? Yeah. Hey. If if you need to flip it around and just create value back to the business, that's super simple because we could just very quickly show the results of of the change and how that that can impact the bottom line. So if you just wanna create more room for people to work more and harder for for your bottom line, then do that and say, you know, wow. Holy crap. Now I see we're spending x amount of dollars every week in meetings. Let's let's pull that back so we've got more time to spend solving tickets and, or, you know, doing sales, calls. And and that's that's time back and and profit back to the business. So, you know, as a byproduct, though, Todd, if we're creating a better work experience for the users, fantastic. It just happens to enter through a different way, which is, you know, more of, like, a business performance management outlook on where people's time is going. So we think that either way that that produce aid is ingested in an organization is positive for the end workers because it creates awareness around what's going on in their day. It gives them something to to give them feedback and and not just in this perpetual loop of of work and however work is dictated to them by the tools they use. So if it's, you know, brought in from a for more of a top down initiative than a bottom up, like, that's okay because the end the end output to the end users is the same, and that's awareness and power back in their hands around how they're working. So, you know, yeah, it it's a it's it's why it's not a tough sell. If you look at it if I was looking at it for my MSP, I'd go, well, you know, whether it's it's driven by, we want people to have better days for themselves, or we want people to have better days or less less of, more efficient days because we we just don't wanna be an inefficient company and therefore dragging our bottom line. Either way, positively impacts workers, which is awesome. And it and it positively impacts the guys that are, you know, running these businesses, and that's that's just gotta pay the bill. But very quickly, you can see that it's a worthwhile investment by many orders of magnitude, by small changes and impacts in the organization. And then, you know, for MSPs, this is something that as soon as soon as they understand the impact for their business, we encourage them to bring it to their customers. Because, you know, just like we wouldn't want MSPs to sell email without using email, we would we don't want them to go talk about produce 8 without understanding actually how positive the product can be in their work environment. So get it, understand it, and then bring it to the customers because we know that this is a much bigger problem than just it it exists in MSPs. And all these end customers are gonna be thrilled to be having that conversation with their MSP around what their people are doing and how they can do their jobs a little bit better, a little bit less burdensome from the, you know, technology that they're using. I like that. Like, not necessarily being prescriptive of about why you should do this. Like your own intentions can be your own. Right? But like let's be realistic. Time is the most important resource any business has. Right? Like if you have human labor as like the like one of the highest costs of of of your p and l which is any service company, your highest cost is gonna be your people. So how do you effectively utilize their time? Like, that is the name of the game. Right? So we're not talking about draconian measures to make sure that it's efficiently as, efficient as possible, but let's be realistic that it is absolutely a resource that will be utilized and is non recoverable in your business. So you're better off to manage this with some level of intention, I suppose. 100%. And I mean, look, you can even take it to the next layer. And we're we didn't talk about this at all today, and we don't have enough time. But, you know, talking about workflows, talking about efficient use of the tools, talking about tool utilization and, you know, the order of the use of those tools. There's so many things that you can start to unlock when you understand what's happening in your day and what's, you know and your teams can share what's happening in their days. So, you know, there's the 2 biggest costs any MSP have are people and technology. You can really, really start to understand how this could be positively impacting the business's bottom line by starting to look at these things, through a different lens. And so, you know, at yeah. At the end of the day, we we know that this is a tool that, or platform that that businesses can get a lot of value back for their the business. But at the same time, we feel that we can accomplish something really positive for the end users, and that's gaining, you know, regaining control of their own Workday. Awesome. Well, I appreciate your efforts, Joel. And, anyone who's not checked out the products, see for yourself. Right? Like, I I think it's a a really important aspect to to building, a scalable and efficient company. So appreciate your time, Joel. Thanks for being on. Thank you so much, Todd. Take care. Bye bye.