ERP045 - Management Superheroes w/ Aydin Mirzaee

Welcome to Evolve Radio where we explore the evolution of business and technology. Today we're talking about one of my favorite topics, management. Earlier this year, I found a software tool that filled a gap that I've struggled with for years. Both as a manager in previous roles, but also the managers that I've coached. Keeping notes for meetings, one-on-ones, sharing deliverables and providing feedback. There are a lot of things that you have to keep track of in an organization, especially if you're managing a large group of people. There are some tools that can help with some of these, but it's always imperfect. Then I found fellow. They call it manager's co-pilot, but I could argue it's a lot more than that. It uses the management practices that I personally advocate for and puts it all the information in a lightweight, easy-to-use platform. I invited Aiden Mirzahi, CEO and co-founder of fellow to talk about the software and discuss management practices and how fellow can help. I hope you enjoy the conversation with Aiden. If you enjoyed the show, be sure to subscribe on iTunes, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcast from. Also, be sure to check out the web page evolvedt.com/podcast for show notes, links to my guests and to check out previous episodes. Now let's get started. Now let's get started. Today on the podcast, I have Aiden Mirzahi, CEO and co-founder of fellow. Thanks for joining me, Aiden. Great to be on. So, you were going to discuss a pretty cool solution that you have developed for helping managers and do their work. And make the lives of their teams and the organizations function better and just hit more goals and be able to manage their day. Uh before we get into the tactics around management, if you could just give us a bit of an origin story, who are you and where you've come from to be in the position you're in now? Yeah, definitely. So, uh, so it's it's a it's a bit of a story, but uh most of it uh starts from uh my last company. So, I uh co-founded another company before fellow.app, uh which was called Fluidware. And so we were in the online survey space. We started this company in 2008, uh the world was falling apart. And uh we just assumed that we couldn't raise venture capital, so we didn't even try. Uh but we bootstrapped the company to just about 100 people and then we sold the company uh to Survey Monkey. Uh and uh our company became what was Survey Monkey Canada. Uh and so the reason I I tell that story is because the idea for fellow actually started uh with our adventures in building up Fluidware and then selling it to Survey Monkey. And uh so when we had started that company, I was 21, my two co-founders were 19. Uh we didn't know anything about anything. And so the way that we would actually learn uh things was by using software. So, um and what I mean by that is so if you don't know anything about sales, but you start using a sales force. You'll start to get some best practices or at least some common workflows about what sales is all about. Uh similarly with marketing, if you use a Marketo or you use a mailchimp, you'll start to get some basic elements of um of what marketing is and what, you know, best practices are. Uh and that kind of makes sense, right, because, you know, what is software to begin with in the enterprise, like the vast majority of like, you know, earlier software was was about uh taking best in class workflows and then digitizing them and making it really easy for everybody to kind of do the same things. And um, you know, as we were growing the team and we started to become more successful at the last company and we started hiring people. The first question that we asked ourselves was, you know, you know, now we're managers and then shortly thereafter we became managers of managers. And we always wondered like where is that equivalent tool for managers of people? Um, in the same way that you become an account manager and you get access to salesforce, why isn't there that equivalent tool for managers? Uh you get promoted to be a manager, you get hired as a manager, why can't there be that, you know, equivalent tool? And so we looked for it, uh we did not find it. Um, and so, you know, what we did and, you know, what I what I assume a certain portion of people do when they want to learn how to be a manager or or be better at management. You know, they might go on an Amazon and search for management books. And if you do that today, there's over 70,000 titles. Uh and every year there's thousands more, so clearly there's like this hunger and demand for um getting better at this this art. Uh but we didn't um but that but that was it. And so that kind of perplexed us for for that whole period and a decade later we kind of looked out and we said, you know, maybe there's something today. And and there still wasn't. Uh so we decided that we should be the ones to build it. And so, you know, the idea behind fellow was we wanted to build it to be a manager's co-pilot, this tool that was super lightweight, that kind of helped you uh put into practice all the best practice workflows that great managers do. And just made it easy and second nature so that uh great management could scale across a company. Yeah, you hit on something that I find really kind of perplexing as you said about management is that a lot of it is acquired knowledge and it is kind of a dark art. The people build their management framework for lack of a better description, it's often just sort of, you know, going by gut. Or mimicking previous managers that they've had. And that maybe has some good elements to it, but it often has some terrible elements to it. So I find it really fascinating that despite all of the books that are available on, you know, what being a great leader is. It's often very sort of touchy feely, it's not really about tactics and sort of direct best practices. It's uh more the CEO office, which I describe as inspiration and the manager or the COO office is much more about perspiration. But no one really gives you the playbook for that. So I find it really interesting that that you identified something similar that I did that this was sort of a a gap in the market that it's truly amazing that it's taken this long for someone to to really tackle that. So I applaud you guys for for putting something in place, I think it's desperately needed. Yeah, I mean, it's just perplexing. So, um, the other fun facts around this are, so when you actually look at the stats, so it turns out when people leave companies, 50% of the time they're actually leaving their direct manager and not the company. Uh and 70% of the things that actually affect employee engagement, which is in crisis mode everywhere right now, 70% of that is due to your direct manager. So, you know, with all this stuff said, I mean, and especially in tech world and, you know, all the fast growing companies and organizations in the world, we're constantly taking, uh, you know, junior folks, the best designer, the best developer, we're turning them into managers. Which is totally cool and we should keep doing that, but it's it's strange that we're not giving them something to kind of help them in the process. And you know, this goes way behind beyond training. You know, how many people do you know that are trained to do all the right things but don't necessarily do it? Right, it's trainings and it's systems together uh that really makes the move. Yeah, 100% agree with that. I I often joke that uh you wouldn't let uh um just anybody manage your books, you would probably want to get a CPA or someone to be your accountant. Yet you'll hand over a $2 million business unit full of, you know, 12 staff and just say, you know, you'll do great, here you go, you know, over to you, I'm sure you'll figure it out, you'll do fine. There's really no framework or or methodology that's applied, it's it's just assumed that people will understand how to do this stuff. I think it's incredibly dangerous in a lot of situations. Yeah, and then I mean I mean it's a lot of things that you touched on. But, you know, the other part of this is and uh the world of management is starting to change too, right? So, part of this is like if you kind of like really go back in time. Uh, you know, management, I mean, a lot of what used to happen. Say, I'm going to rewind 30 years ago, so it's far enough back, so this is easy to to to talk about. Um, but, you know, like a lot of management used to be task delegation and project management stuff. And and what's happened is over the course of time, there's more and more software out there. And a lot of those tasks that used to take managers say a longer period of time to do are now just easier to do. There's just better software that makes those things easier. And so now managers are actually able to focus on some things that maybe weren't as relevant before, such as coaching, career development, and, you know, giving constant feedback to folks. And so now there's actually time to do those sorts of things, um because a lot of the other things are taken care of. And it turns out that those things are actually like can have a much broader impact than some basic like task delegation and things, uh, you know, of the past. Um, that's one change. And then the other one, which is which is really big as well is that the world of management is changing in terms of uh what we used to call performance management. Uh, you probably heard that all these big companies like General Electric and Deloitte and Microsoft. Uh, all these companies are getting rid of their annual performance review cycles, all that stack ranking that used to happen. All that is out the door. Adobe recently did this. And so what's happening is all those things are being replaced and then instead of what what used to be there, now there's this concept of constant conversations. So, you know, if you think about it, it makes no sense, like why wait until the end of the year, uh to give your staff feedback. About, you know, how how they've been doing, like that makes no sense. Because if you had told them earlier, they would have had say, maybe nine months to actually improve on those things. So, and a lot of this stuff comes from where, uh, you know, a lot of these things are are innovations from like, uh, the world of tech. Uh, as you know, so with agile software, we're constantly, uh, basically, you know, as opposed to using a waterfall method, we're using agile method. If you look at the world of startups and this concept of minimum viable products. Why wait to build this really big product and only find out that it's not the right product for the market? Why not start with like a way smaller piece of that that's minimally viable and get that to market and get feedback on it? It's just the same thing, so instead of this concept of like, let's wait a year and work in these large batches, let's work in small batches and constant conversations. And all this to say is like the methodologies of management are also changing. So, um, in combination with with what I what I mentioned previously around, you know, software has made it easier for managers to do a lot of their previous tasks and now they have more time to engage in these other things. Um, these two forces in combination are really changing the way organizations work. Um, and not everyone is quite there yet, I I feel like companies in the world of technology are adopting to some of these things faster. But, uh, the rest of the world is is still adopting and and but we see a very rapid adoption cycle in the way that people are changing the way that they work. And I think this touches on something that I advocate a lot is is there's an epidemic of under management in most organizations. And and I think part of this comes from everyone's fear, what they they constantly talk about is micromanagement, they fear being a micromanager. And micromanagement in my opinion is something very specific, it's not actually what people think it is. And in a lot of cases what you're talking about is high cadence communication, lots of conversations, lots of feedback, lots of attention to the staff. That's just good management. But people I think fear if they're in their face of their staff too much or talking to them or giving them direction or just, you know, spending too much time with them, then they're going to be viewed as a micromanager. Is that that's something that that you've seen a fear in as well? I think the uh the thing that I mean certainly that that can also be the case. But one of the things that we like to talk about for example is, uh obviously one of the things that fellow does uh really well, uh is basically it uh helps you uh run better one-on-ones. And so in in our view and one of the things that we advocate is, it's it's okay to talk about some sort of project updates. And and general things in a one-on-one, but, you know, the vast majority of that shouldn't be about. Like it shouldn't be a project meeting. A project meeting should have its own place. A one-on-one is so much more than that. And so, uh if you're only talking about project updates and like, did you do this and did you do that and like what's the status on this, then uh you know, you're not actually doing the one-on-one uh in in the most correct fashion. And so, as a result, like this new methodology that we're basically uh encouraging. And uh kind of advocating, um doesn't lead to. Uh, you know, as as much micromanagement. Yeah, I agree, one of the practices that I'm a huge advocate for when I'm I'm coaching teams and managers is I insist that one-on-ones need to happen on a weekly basis. And I often get a fair bit of pushback on this saying like, oh, it's too much time. It's too much time. But if you actually break it down, if you're having manageable size teams, it's basically two to 3% of your week. And if you can't dedicate that amount of time to supporting your staff, then you're it's probably a lack of prioritization. So I'm a huge fan of of one-on-ones when done well. And the primary component for a one-on-one in my opinion is building relationships. It's really just about spending time with the staff uh to get to know them and build a level of trust that then you can have a foundation to work better with them on. It's not about, you know, telling them what to do or directing them per se, it's really much more about building that relationship and and focusing on the work and the people, but building a bridge between those two people. Yeah. I mean, relationships are pretty core to uh, you know, what what we feel is important at fellow. You know, some people call fellow like the best way to manage your relationships at work. Um, and so, yeah, I mean, relationships are definitely a core uh core of that. Uh it's also things like obviously consistent feedback. Uh and it's not always, you know, a lot of people think about feedback as like, hey, you could have done this better. Uh but it's also about things like, hey, this thing that you did, that was great. Uh because, you know, often times if if there isn't that positive feedback, you know, the the other party might think that, oh, okay, like this. I guess what I'm doing is maybe not as great, so maybe I stop doing that. And so, uh, you know, it's really both ends of that. But it's also things like career conversations, it's also unblocking. You know, the uh the other party or your direct report on on things like, so what are you struggling with today? How can I help? What could I do to move things faster for you? Are you getting the information that you need from the other teams? Like, how do you find working with this person? How do you think our team is perceived in the company overall? Like, if you were in my shoes, what would you do differently? It's it's all those different conversations and, you know, one of the things that we wanted to do in fellow, um, was really just give people those suggested topics. So, obviously we we facilitate the one-on-one discussion. And and, you know, fellow does a lot more than just that. But, we also give you these uh suggested topics that are basically intelligently suggested based on who you are, uh and a bunch of different factors. And it really makes it easy. So if you if you're curious and you're not sure how you should start one of these things or you don't have enough topics to add. Uh, one of the things that again, like with the advent of uh smart and software is like we can actually suggest things that that you should be talking about. Yeah, you guys had a uh infographic or a market download recently that had 200 questions to ask in a in a one-on-one. And I thought that was awesome. Because it really is about just asking more questions and digging around, right? It's not that the conversation will necessarily flow easily the first few times. So to be able to arm the managers with uh some some exploratory questions, I think is really helpful to grease the wheels on this stuff. Yeah. Yeah, we did a lot of work on that. And you know, those 200 questions were, you know, uh basically the best questions that we had researched from all the best management thinkers uh on the topic. And so that's something that I definitely recommend for readers to check out. Um, and it's just on the fellow.app blog. Uh the other one, uh which we're pretty proud of is this piece uh that we wrote about what we call a 10X manager. Um, or what we actually refer to within the company as super managers. Um, and so, uh the reason that we thought uh we think that that blog post is very very interesting is like, often times in the world of organizations, uh, we often tend to think that, you know, when a team is not performing. It's the people on the team that are the reason for it. Um, but and you know, obviously in the world of technology, there's always, you know, a lot of people talking about, uh, you know, things like 10X engineers. Um, and you know, there was this great big debate about this on the internet very recently, it was quite controversial uh on Twitter. But, you know, one of the things that we think about at fellow is that it's not even about the individual contributors. Um, and you know, can you really be a 10X individual contributor? Maybe. But is that really as relevant as as, you know, the 10X manager that can actually produce 10X the outcome from that team? Uh by basically using the strengths of the team to compensate for the weaknesses of others on the team and really just like orchestrating, um, great teamwork and really increasing performance uh through that. Uh so that's another uh piece that we wrote that that got a lot of attention on the internet that I would also recommend. So, uh the the fellow app is built around what I I would see as a very familiar framework and part of the reason that I was really excited about the app when I saw it. Is that it it basically is is directly in line with what I'm coaching uh uh my clients and people that I work with. Or or just the things that I'm advocating for managers to do, which is one-on-ones, feedback and coaching. And uh I I'm curious sort of how you aligned or how you developed those as the fundamental framework for the application. Where did you sort of develop the framework that was built uh for using fellow? Yeah. You know, this is a question that we get all the time, which is, okay, so you guys have this tool for managers. And so you must be using a framework, like which framework are you using? And this is a very interesting question because our approach I think was um it was pretty interesting because we decided not to use any of those things. Um, and and the part of the reason was that, you know, there is no best way to do. Um, you know, all management, management is is still partially an art, uh but obviously there is a lot of science to it. Um, and so what we decided to do was build fellow as a productivity app. So we came out and said, okay, like, what should great managers do? Um, they should have one-on-ones. Uh, they should give feedback. They should set goals. They should run effective team meetings. So, we basically took out all the different things that we thought great managers did, and then what we did was we just built all of those tools almost like as tools in a toolkit. They really tightly coupled with each other that were that were very lightweight, easy to use, but didn't prescribe anything. So it wasn't a prescriptive solution, our thought was to be just to give people the tools to facilitate all those things and reduce friction to the point that it made it so easy to do all those things that it was easier to do them than not to do them. And so that's kind of the approach we took. And so that's why, you know, today, uh, you know, fellow's, you know, obviously it works at companies, but it also works at nonprofits, educational institutes, governments, churches, um, you know, everything. Like from any sort of breed of organization, um, can use fellow and and we have users across uh, you know, all those different types of organizations. And part of the reason is we we decided not to be prescriptive. And that's great. Yeah, and I agree, there's there's systems that you can use, but not everyone will be exactly the same. If you try to force people to follow a particular system, they may or may not glob on to it in the ways that you anticipate. So we talked about one-on-ones being an important component. The the other piece that is pretty prominent is is feedback. Um, why do you think that people struggle with giving positive feedback to staff more often than they probably do? Yeah. So, I. You know, I I think the um, you know, in general, humans are probably not wired uh to give feedback well. This is something that, you know, we don't often uh necessarily grow up just being exposed to. Um, as often and I find that, you know, most people when they think of the word feedback, they think of it in a very constructive sense, like it's a bad thing. Uh, but really, you know, feedback is this enormous opportunity. You know, at a lot of companies, for example, at Facebook and at Shopify and, um, a lot of these sorts of companies, there's this this motto that goes around, which is feedback is a gift. And it's something that we actually believe in as well. It's this opportunity to actually figure out uh what you like how you're doing today, but also how you can consistently get better. And it's this notion of like constant never ending improvement, uh that if you can actually adopt, like your career will progress much faster, you'll grow as a person. And so this concept of growth is is something that we think feedback can actually enable. Uh, but it's it's two parts. It's uh it's, you know, what what are the things that you're doing that uh you appreciate? Um, and that, you know, at any point in time, you can look at any person on your staff on your team and say like, I really appreciate this thing that you do, um, and the reason for it is uh this, this and that. Uh, and and similarly on on the other side, obviously constructive feedback is also important. But there's also an art to giving constructive feedback. Uh, you know, for example, a way not to do it is to say that, uh, you're lazy. You know, um, so a better way to do it, you know, something like that is to really focus on the actual action, um, that you're giving feedback on. Um, and on the fact. So for example, when you, um, you know, so recently your delivery on this project uh was late uh in accordance to like the dates that we had chosen. Uh when you did this, it uh made me feel that you didn't take this deadline seriously and as a result, the impacts were this, this and that. Um, what I would suggest is that the next time you're going to uh, you know, you think that you might miss a deadline. It would be a lot more helpful if you were to, for example, notify us in advance so that, you know, maybe other team members on the team could actually help out with that. And so, you know, what we did there was obviously we pointed out the facts, uh we pointed out the impacts, and then obviously there was a suggestion of like what could have uh been done better. So, uh and and these are things that we talk about on our blog. Uh but again, these are also templates and things that fellow just has baked in within the product that that also make make these things easier to do. So I think one of the things that um uh junior managers or managers without a a lot of uh a lot of training or or development struggle with is uh moving from an individual contributor. Recognizing that their contribution to the organization is now uh the contribution of the team. Not as them as an individual. So, uh can you talk a bit about like how you feel that managers help the team with workload and prioritization? And the importance of that switch from individual contributor to as you describe more an orchestrator uh for the team going forward. Yeah, it's not an it's not an easy switch. And I mean there there's so many components of it, but you know, one of the things is that, you know, often times you have to keep in mind the people that do get promoted tend to be the best people at that particular function. And so when you first get promoted, it's all of a sudden, well, you know, I could get them to do that. But I could do it so much faster. Or yeah, like but they're just not doing it as good as I used to do it. Um, and so there there's almost this like you have to take this long-term view of, okay, that's great and that's true right now, but really over the long term, if I want this team to perform optimally. Um, I have to make sure that each and every member on the team can actually do those things and continuously do them better. And while while it may seem slower at first, that's the way that over the course of time. Like this team can can effectively move a lot faster. And you know, part of the ways um that you can almost think about this is you you want to get to the point where each person on your on your team is using their strengths as much as possible. And always getting better at those strengths and also understanding that, you know, where their weakness is. It's not always about like fixing every weakness for every person on your team, but rather, you know, can there be another person on the team that can actually fill in on that weakness and kind of fill the gaps? But collectively, as a team now, you have this super high performing, um, group of people that again, everybody uses their strengths. They make up for their weaknesses. They're constantly getting feedback and they're getting better at what they're doing. And so over the course of time, it there's just this compounding effect of this team continuously getting better. So, you know, a manager is only like one of the things that you have to think about is, because the manager exists, because the manager is part of that team, that team should produce a a significant amount more value than if they were not involved with the team. Um, so so that that's that's kind of the value. Like the manager has to be a performance enhancer for um for for that team um as a whole. Yeah, that's great. Uh the managers are are the growth engine for most organizations, but it's uh it's often a a bit of a maligned role and I hope that that that the the change in awareness and and the understanding of the importance of that role going forward. And and how it can really accelerate the performance of the team when done right, uh is something that that is definitely coming more into fashion. So, with that. Oh, it's huge. Yeah, with that, how would uh you give us a breakdown on the things that we've talked about, you know, facilitating the function of the team, supporting the individual contributors, providing one-on-ones and facilitation, uh how does fellow support the manager and the organization in that effort? Yeah, I mean, so, um, one of the other things that uh, you know, is obviously important uh in all of this is, um, is this concept of, you know, managers obviously like you're you're managing individual people, but you're also managing groups of people. And so for example, one of the other things that you're doing is you're facilitating uh meetings. So fellow has this team meeting component uh that allows you to collaborate on agendas ahead of the meeting. Uh allows everybody to kind of participate and add talking points and take notes. Um, but also capture action items, you know, coming from that meeting. And so if this is a recurring meeting, it also makes it really easy for all those action items from last time. Sort of carry over forward uh to this week's meeting, for example, so that you can keep track of those things and make sure that the things and the commitments that were made are actually uh sort of completed. Um, so a lot of what I'm talking about, like these are best practices that, you know, people who facilitate meetings would would actually uh know. But what fellow does is it just makes it so easy and frictionless. Um, that everybody can participate and always carry forward these uh these best practices. So, uh to some extent, what it does is it it it just takes all these best workflows. Uh make sure that not only can one manager do it, but it makes it easy for all managers within the organization to to do those same great things. Um, and once everybody's doing um something the same way. It just becomes part of the organizational DNA. Um, it's really interesting, I I don't know if you've heard this um uh this uh sort of uh story about uh there was this uh General Motors plant. And I believe it it was in the 1980s. Uh have you heard this story? Yeah, in California, it's the basis of the movie Gung Ho. Yeah. Oh, really? I didn't know there was a movie on it. I should definitely watch it. Um, but, you know, for for for the listeners who haven't heard the story. But, you know, basically this was GM's worst plan. Um, you know, by far. Like the the employees would go on strike often. Uh, you know, absenteeism was in the 20% range, like things were so bad that employees would actually go out and sabotage the equipment. Um, and then there was a joint venture between uh GM and and Toyota. Uh it was called Numi. And, you know, that joint venture all of a sudden completely changed things. Uh so, you know, that plant went from being one of GM's worst to being one of GM's best. The absenteeism that was 20% dropped to 2%. Like everything completely changed. And the most interesting part about it was that none of the employees were actually changed. All the same troublemakers in the last plant continued to stay. But somehow the uh the plant completely, completely uh, you know, turned around. And um, you know, the conclusion by the person who was actually the director running um the plant was that, you know, most organizations. What they try and do is they try and change everyone's belief system. Uh but actually the way to change an organization is not to change your belief system first. It's by changing what people do. Uh and by changing what people do, then you're able to actually change what people believe. So they went in and introduced a great new system. And so that's one of the things that like we took inspiration from at fellow is that, you know, we wanted to put into place at those uh those great systems so that people start doing things the right way and eventually their beliefs around management and how effective it can be can change over the course of time. That's amazing. And I guess uh the I love the the tool, I've used it a little bit um in the early access program. And I think one of the parts that really sells it is like you said, is the collaboration component is really key. Um and also that it's lightweight and it is sort of intuitive and and sort of prompts you and nudges you to do certain things and to follow up on certain things. And and uh sort of gives you a a bit of a hand up, like you said, a bit of a co-pilot, right? Um I think that that to me is probably the distinction on why this works well over some of the existing tool sets that reasonably you could use for this. I mean, you can use email. You can use like some Microsoft tools and things like that. But I think the sharing and the collaboration on those tools are are still very, very cumbersome and I I love the fact that it works more fluidly in in fellow. Yeah. I mean, we've taken a lot of inspiration from uh, you know, a lot of people compare us to, you know, modern tools like Slack and Asana and Trello. So we've kind of taken all these like uh new concepts and and weaving them into this modern, you know, clean looking, easy to use interface. Um, and remember, this is I mean, this is the the sort of thing that end up getting used by everybody in the organization. And so, uh, you have varying um, you know, tech savviness throughout an organization. The only way to actually make software work, um, in modern days, it's just got to be dead simple. Um, you know, people don't have the time or patience to watch video tutorials or to read things. Uh it's just got to make sense off the bat. And as you know, like with all of us carrying around these modern uh smartphones and everything else. It it's just the the bar is so much higher for what um, you know, aesthetically pleasing software looks like and intuitiveness looks like. Everybody has an opinion on on this stuff, the bar is so much higher. But I think what it does is it makes um software in general uh better for everybody. And you guys do have integrations with uh some of the the more popular platforms like Slack and Asana, uh those other tools, right? Uh Slack, yes. Uh Office 365, um and kind of the Google suite. Uh but uh Asana and, you know, some of these other sorts of tools are are also uh on our road map and uh will be available in the not too distant future. Awesome. Well, uh really appreciate your time and and the the work that you guys are doing to build the, like I said, I think a really relevant and and necessary piece of software. Uh if you could uh just tell people where they can find you and if they want to know more about fellow and and maybe give it a give it a whirl, where they should go. Yeah, definitely. So, I think by the time that uh this podcast is published, uh we actually our go live date uh where we become publicly available is on September uh 18th. Uh so, but if you go to www.fellow.app. Uh, you can find out, sign up, we have a really, really great free plan, uh so check it out and you can actually use it free forever in that way. Um, and and I'm also uh on Twitter, uh so it's just my first name at Aiden, A Y D I N, uh and you can reach out to me that way as well. Excellent. Appreciate your time, Aiden, and best of luck in the future. Thank you.