ERP082 - Emotional Intelligence and EQ

These are real skills that can be taught and learned. And so, whether one feels like he or she has emotional intelligence or not, it doesn't matter. Because it's like, okay, there are 15 according to the emotional intelligence assessment and that whole sphere, there are 15 separate emotional skills that people can look at and and learn and be coached on and then implement in their daily lives. Welcome to Evolved Radio, where we explore the evolution of business and technology. I'm your host, Todd Kane. When it comes to delivering cyber security services to your clients, there's a lot to consider. Even more at stake. Firewalls and antivirus don't provide enough protection and adding more tools to an already complex tech stack is expensive and difficult to manage. The field effect partner momentum program and the award-winning security portfolio solve these issues by enabling MSPs to deliver complete cyber security protection, unlock new revenue streams, simplify operations and stand out from the competition. Learn more and connect with field effect team today by visiting fieldeffect.com/mspradio. Joining me today on the Evolved Radio podcast is Stephen Passale of Kirkoff Tech. Stephen and I discuss emotional intelligence or EQ. Emotional intelligence is often a strong indicator of people's future success. However, it's a bit of an amorphous subject that isn't well understood by most. We talk about coaching and how you can check in with people beyond the, hey, how are you doing? We talk mental health and what leaders should be looking for in their staff as red flags. We also help define EQ and emotional intelligence to better understand these terms in a business context. If you enjoy the show, please consider leaving a rating and review in your favorite podcast app. It really helps to spread awareness and bring more listeners to the show so we can share the message with more of the community. Now, please enjoy my conversation with Stephen. Stephen, welcome to the Evolved Radio podcast. Hi, Todd, thank you for having me. So this will be a really helpful topic, I think, and an interesting journey that you've taken as well in in your career. And I think it's probably the best place to start, honestly. If you could tell us how you actually ended up in the role that you're currently in, because it's it's not like you were hired sort of into the company in this role. So, if you could maybe expand upon the journey of of how you've landed in this particular role that you're in now. Yeah, awesome. So, I've been with Kirkoff Technologies for almost exactly four years, Todd. And I started off in a typical Bizdev role. The idea was for me to come in and interact with clients and and not necessarily like do hard sales. That's really not kind of what we're about. But more just kind of helping clients to understand what their needs are, even if they don't understand. And then kind of matching those with the the services and products that we provide. And so that was the the beginning of the journey. But I've had some leadership experiences in the past and and and I've done a lot of work with teams. And so, uh, I I soon probably about a year and a half in kind of got transitioned into more of a leadership role. Up until about two years ago was president. But taking a different turn now and and it's probably the the approach that I took in my in my administrative, my leadership roles was always a coaching role. So whether I was having a conversation with a client or or a team member, it's always the approach that I took. is is to have that that coaching role. And so, we've also just based on COVID and what's been going on in the world in the last probably year and a half. Just seeing a real need to to help teammates and clients engage at that level, kind of at that coaching level to help them navigate all the nuances of what's going on in the world around them, the stresses of work. We made the strategic decision to move me into a role dedicated solely to that. And so, been in that role for probably about six months now. And and been building a lot of content and kind of strategizing, how do we how do we fit this into our current model without it being a distraction from the other goals that we're trying to achieve? So it's it's uh it's a journey that we're still on, but that's that's kind of the the abbreviated version of how we got to where I am today. Sure. How much of this was born out of like the sort of the COVID circumstances? Was that sort of a force that that created this role or do you think that this would have come about regardless based on on trajectory? I believe it would have come out anyway, it's something that that uh Wim Kirkoff, our CEO and I have been talking about for a number of years. In fact, I went ahead and and upscaled in terms of professional development. I got certified in emotional intelligence probably about two years ago, I think. So we were already kind of on that on that trajectory. I think I think COVID and and all of the things that that resulted from that. event and are still happening, were just further evidence that this is the direction that we need to be taking. Yeah. No, that makes sense. I'm really curious sort of what you're seeing and how you're actually applying this support role. I I suppose to to to the staff that you have. Because I think there's a lot to be learned here. Uh I think there's sort of two things that I I'd like to kind of hear your thoughts on. One is, how do you actually recognize that someone may be struggling if they're unaware of it? And this this is something that I I felt that I've seen in the the groups that I've been working with. is that the individual staff, if someone sort of puts their hand up or demonstrates some behaviors that shows they're struggling, then sure, you can you can absolutely help them in in that capacity. And and I think that's a huge portion of what leadership should be doing. But what I've also noticed is that there are people struggling that are basically unaware of it themselves. So if they may be demonstrating some behaviors, but they may not be. So I imagine you you've sort of seen both of those scenarios in in the work that you're doing. How are you approaching this more on a global level with everyone and and doing a bit of a check-in? To see, you know, how how are people doing really, not just sort of, hey, how are you doing? Yeah, good. That type of approach, right? And then how are you identifying the people that may be struggling but are consciously unaware of it? Oh yeah, that's it's a beautiful question, Todd. And it's it's something that I still think about and and I haven't necessarily come to a like here's here's the amazing answer that you're looking for. Because it's it's always in process. So, I'll answer that question in two ways. There's there's more the you use the term global. When I when I think of the term global, I think of all the all the information that's even beyond Kirkoff Technologies or for for people who are listening to this podcast. Even beyond your circumstance or your context. And there there's the data that we can pull. Like, for example, what we know to be true globally is that 50% of people. are just they're not happy with their jobs. Like they're just not happy. We we know that statistically. And less than 50%, but very close, don't find meaning in the work that they do. And so. it's it's easy for me to go to our team at Kirkoff Technologies and say, here's what the data is telling us. We don't know if this is true of you or not, but it's a conversation starter. More granularly to to get at the the the heart of your question. It is a difficult thing because you could say to someone, yeah, I'm noticing some signs. And if they might not have heard that statement from me, they probably would have just kept on going and maybe been doing okay. But now because I've identified that, it's causing them to question themselves and have a little bit of self-doubt. And so, I really find myself needing to be careful because I don't want to create something that's not there. But at the same time, what we hear consistently from our people is. overworked. Really, really busy to the extent that I'm I'm overwhelmed. And I need to take some time off. Because I just I can't keep going. I I need to I need to rest. I need to recover. And so, the thing that we're trying to do is better identify what those signs and signals are. To address those things before they say to us, I need time off. Because by then it's it's it's too late. And so, the idea of having regular, so for for me, it's it's bi-weekly meetings with everybody. Whether they feel like they needed or not, and so we've been doing that for probably, I want to say, a good three to four months. And a lot of people are buying in. But it's still a pretty awkward conversation for for some of our people right now who feel they don't need it. And so it's like, hey. I've got a ton of things to do, can we just kind of get through this call so I can get back to my work? But other people are going, yeah, you know what, I'm I'm grateful for this and I really want to talk through this issue that I'm experiencing. And then you can engage a lot better with them. And so, it's more of an art than a science, Todd. And I I think all your listeners and I know you would agree that when it comes to identifying people who are on the verge. of of having some struggles in the area of mental health. It's it's really it's really tricky because you you need to know your people and and understand those signs that that only they can give. Yeah. I think you'll you'll admit that this is a a pretty unusual role. This is not something that that I would say is typical to have someone who's dedicated to this type of coaching and support. Is this something that you guys saw somewhere else and modeled off of or was this really kind of created internally? And built kind of of your own devices or were you were you trying to replicate something that you potentially saw out in the in the industry? There's two things going on there, Todd. I think it it's one, it's it's a combination of the vision that Wim Kirkoff has had for a while. To be able to to provide this for the team at KTI. And so he's always had this on his radar. But as we've been so busy scaling other parts of the business, it's kind of been just something in the background. The second thing I would add is is the idea of mental health and overwhelm and burnout. Those those things are very real in my experience and also Wim's experience. And so because we've we this is not just an academic exercise because it seems to be the hot topic now. We've experienced our own seasons of overwhelm and burnout. And so we're able to speak into this from first-hand experience. And so, and I mentioned before, at the start of this conversation, it's it's something that I just bring to every conversation anyway because it's who I am. And so, I've always been been messaging Wim that, you know, this this is kind of really what I'm passionate about. And and could there be some kind of a role for me in this area? Hmm. Okay. Yeah, that's great. Maybe spinning back to maybe some of the practicals that that people could uh could leverage here as well. I agree, I think this is an issue that is pervasive, but also somewhat insidious. Like it it to some extent it's invisible and visible if you're looking for the right things, I suppose. Now, recognizing not every team is going to be able to dedicate someone like yourself to championing this within the organization. What are some of the things that you would maybe suggest or recommend people consider? Is it just, you know, having a bit of a workshop or bringing people together for an open conversation about this? Should it maybe be approached on a a more individual level? Like, how would you broker this conversation in order to sort of crack this thing open for within your company? Todd, one of the things I'm really dedicated to is to try to make the whole idea. of emotional intelligence accessible for people because to me, emotional intelligence. can even the name itself, the idea of intelligence can lend itself to being much more of an academic exercise that's very hard, like you said, to to access it and to make it practical. And so, I like the idea of of resilience. Because it's one thing to just kind of talk about emotional health and and and mental health. But it's another thing to then take it to the next step like you've done. And say, well, what do I do with this and how do I how do I make it real? And so, the thing that I that I like to say to people right off the bat is it has to go beyond just a a conversation of understanding. And helping people understand that these are real skills. that can be taught and learned. And so, whether one feels like he or she has emotional intelligence or not. It doesn't matter. Because it's like, okay. There are 15 according to the emotional intelligence assessment. And that whole sphere, there are 15 separate emotional skills that people can look at and and learn and be coached on and then implement in their daily lives. I I like to narrow it down a little bit because 15, I mean, that's kind of a daunting number. But. the idea is that don't be afraid of a conversation about emotional intelligence because let's have a very practical discussion about things that you can do in your life right now. Habits that you can implement, things that you can practice in your conversations with people at work and at home. Habits in your personal life, whether it comes to nutrition or rest or exercise and all of those types of things, it's these are things that can be learned. So it's really trying to reframe the discussion away from an academic understanding of it to more of a boots on the ground. And so, the the thing that I would say to your question is absolutely yes. Workshops. With people who are open to the conversation or even if they're not to be able to say. Okay, here's here's some takeaways, here's some things that you can work on starting now to become more mentally and emotionally resilient in your life so that you can have more meaning and a positive experience in in your job. So, yeah. Workshops. Very specific conversations that go beyond the, hey, how's it going? But more, okay, I've noticed this very specifically, what's going on there? And then making sure that you're working through with some skills to help that person move through that journey. So, Stephen, you mentioned emotional intelligence a couple of times. Uh and I'd like to maybe sort of broaden this or define this a little bit. Your suggestion of emotional intelligence maybe seems more broad, like uh people may be familiar with the term EQ, emotional quotient. But I think you're referring to emotional intelligence and maybe a broader sense about like a collective understanding of your emotions and behaviors and actions. Am I right in thinking that you're you're speaking about sort of that that emotional profile in a broader sense than just EQ, right? Yeah, you're you're perceptive, Todd. And and yeah, the so there's there's the actual, like you mentioned, emotional quotient, which is an assessment that one can take and then they get the result, which gives them a score, like most assessments do. And then someone who is an emotional intelligence coach can then go in and help navigate the results of that assessment. Yeah. So you're you're right, I've been talking more about emotional intelligence as a field. as as an industry, as as an approach to a healthy workplace. So yeah, that's that's been that's been what I've been talking about. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. With that in mind, I would like to narrow in a bit on EQ because uh I do a fair bit of behavioral profiling. With the the clients that I work with and EQ comes up from time to time. Certain organizations are keen to understand the EQ profile of people in their staff and sometimes the people that they're hiring. And the idea being that they're they're sort of looking for someone that has, I guess already some some capabilities or some some skill set in having a higher EQ profile. Is that something, like what what's your feeling on on sort of using EQ assessment as both a hiring practice? And, you know, certainly from a coaching perspective, but is is there a validity to looking for staff that have a higher EQ profile? There there's a lot of validity to that, Todd. And and there are a number of of companies across industries that that do this already as part of the interview process, they'll have the candidate actually take the assessment. And then they'll have one or a team of people that go over it and determine if that person has. Let's just say high EQ. The the thing that we have to be careful about though in doing that, as good a practice as that is. It really is intended to be a conversation starter, especially early on in the relationship because you don't have any context with a candidate. And so you have to be very careful not to label a person as having low or high EQ. Because really emotional intelligence is is a combination of of a couple of things. That go above and beyond the the the assessment, the data. So really it's it's uh a combination of of self-awareness. And self-management. And so one's where where are they at on those continuums? How self-aware are they? How how good are they at managing themselves? And then social awareness and relationship management. Are kind of the four things that we look at when we talk about emotional intelligence. To expand on that a little bit more, the idea of being able to recognize. understand and manage our own emotions is is very key. And then on the flip side of that, our ability to recognize, understand and influence the emotions of others. And so really the the result of the assessment is an indication of where someone is at in those categories that that I just mentioned. And so if someone has a different score, it's not a matter of lower or higher. It's just where are they on a continuum of emotional intelligence? Because we all have different contexts, we bring our backgrounds and our personalities to the table and all of these things are are how we were raised. Different workplace experiences before that, our our family experience, all of these things contribute to emotional intelligence. But the thing the research does say that using EQ. as a measure of of hiring and and firing is a very good way to maintain that healthy culture in your workplace. It's tricky too, I find because. I would say, you know, this is a broad categorization and not not like there's some judgment here, unfortunately. But, you know, the tech industry, I don't think would be sort of a standard for high emotional intelligence in general. Because a lot of the the people that are drawn towards this field of work tend to be a bit, you know, there's some people that are a bit on the spectrum. Don't have sort of the social graces that that maybe other industries do. Technical people, they're very often drawn towards technology and using computers and don't have sort of a great history. of uh the social aspect to draw on in order to potentially be, you know, a more sensitive person. Around, you know, their own emotions, maybe, but not necessarily recognizing the emotions of others. Is is that something that you find is is is is typical as well? Is this is this a a judgment that I see just simply because I'm in the tech industry? Or do you think that there's some truth to that, there's that there will tend to be a lower EQ profile in just in the industry as a whole? Well, I I love the question because I I think about it all the time. The way I would answer that is that my fear is that what you've just described is true in the tech industry. has just become it's become just standard understanding, but I don't think it's 100% true or accurate. It is true that people are in the tech industry, generally speaking, they're they're wired to solve problems. And they're wired to even see problems where problems don't necessarily exist. And that's neither here nor there, it's neither good nor bad. But they in the tech industry, we we still have emotions. Just because we we think in a different way or we're wired more to just put our heads down and leave me alone and let me do my work. And but I'm I'm super busy, but that's okay. Because I don't want to talk to people and I just want to get my work done. That doesn't mean that they're devoid of emotion or or feeling or that being busy affects them in a negative way. That they get overwhelmed. It's just that it's it's it's a it's a more difficult conversation to have because of the lack of openness to those types of topics in conversation. And so the way that I approach it and try to get around it is not to lead a conversation with, okay. Today we're going to talk about your level of emotional intelligence. That would be a a grave mistake. But rather it's like, hey, I I I noticed that you've been really just like tired lately. Like in your your conversations with people have been short. You've been getting frustrated and I just want to have a conversation about what might be going on. And so then that just kind of goes, yeah, I've I've been feeling this way and that way. And we might even use the we might not even use the term emotional intelligence in those conversations. But it's going, are you aware of what you're feeling? Or do you just kind of put your head down, suck it up, get to the end of the day, go home and and game and then go to bed? So using kind of leading language like, are you aware of what's going on here? Are you aware that people don't speak to you in a way that is moving relationships forward? And so, it's it's really kind of trying to tease out things that they can then identify themselves to have those productive conversations. Yeah, that's a really really great way to approach it. I I like that. It it is interesting because part of the reason I asked this is that I I feel it's it's sort of a it's a bit of a paradox. That what I maybe rightly or wrongly see the people attracted in this industry. It does create some issues, right, because it it's an incredibly high stress. industry that we're in. And, you know, if you're working on on a help desk or a service desk. It's not like people call in to just credit you and say that things are going awesome. I often sort of relate the technology industry to the insurance industry. It's not like you just call up your insurance broker and say, you know, I haven't had any claims, but just want to say you guys are awesome, right? Same thing with IT, no one just randomly calls you to say how great you are and they don't have an issue. They're usually calling because they're panicked and something is broken and they're frustrated. So it it definitely creates a sort of a heightened emotional state. And, you know, empathy is something that is often lacking in a lot of technical support, but, you know, for this reason, and is is incredibly important. And that that emotional sort of landscape and both your your ability to regulate your own responses to someone else's emotions is incredibly important. So that you don't sort of take on the stress that they're inferring to you, but also that you're you're compassionate and recognize the emotions in them, right? And it kind of goes back to what you were suggesting before. Around their emotional understanding and regulation of themselves, but also identifying the emotions and responding in an appropriate fashion with the people that they're engaging with, right? Yeah. And the other the other interesting thing that's going on, Todd, I find is. the this this idea of you mentioned kind of the the paradoxes. in in the IT industry, one of the paradoxes that is most kind of outstanding to me. is this idea of isolation. Sometimes we say in in in tech that we prefer isolation. You know, we we prefer to just be on our own and not have to interact with people or clients. Whether it's because of their busyness or their comfort levels, whatever the case. But at the same time, what we're seeing in the literature. And there's just an article published in April of this year, titled IT staffers are emotionally drained and here's how leaders can support them. It's a really insightful article. But isolation, business continuity, endless to-do lists weigh heavy on IT's emotional well-being. That's how it's subtitled. And so, especially when we're in this this uh kind of COVID period of remote work and there seems to be some transition happening there. Isolation is what they want, but at the same time, it's also what's driving them to overwhelm and burnout. And so it's really difficult to navigate that paradox. So when we use words like isolation, we say, you know what, collaboration really is a good thing for you to be involved in. Well, what does that mean? Well, it means talking to people. It means let's let's have some get-togethers even outside of work. We've we've recently called one of our teams back to the office. Um and that was a difficult conversation for and as you can imagine for for a number of reasons. But what we've lost in in our isolation is our ability to. draw on the emotions of others. Because whether we recognize it or not, or whether we agree with it or not, it fuels us. And we need that interaction to avoid those isolating circumstances. Yeah, that's a really important one. And I've talked a bit about this in the past, I think, in some previous podcasts. But, you know, I am I am by all measures an introvert. Right. I I I play the part of an extrovert in certain circumstances and where where it suits me. But I find it really taxing, right? Big events, crowds, I don't love that stuff. So my assumption going into this was like, oh, this is awesome. The joke that I've heard is uh the pandemic is what introverts have been practicing for all their lives. So I I kind of assumed that this was going to be a non-issue. But I really hit the wall after a while where it was no longer an option to go visit with people. And then when I did actually get a chance to to spend time with with some people outside, social distance and all of all those things. I really did find that it was reinvigorating. And that was a bit of a surprise to me. That that recognizing, you know, thinking that I I was I was that much of an introvert. But now recognizing, yes, I there is a time and a place for this. And no person is an island, you absolutely do need some type of social connection, right? Yeah, yeah, 100%, Todd. And and to take it back to the the idea of of emotional intelligence. It's this the idea of self-awareness becomes a very, very important part of of the conversation. Because if if someone is going about their work and about their day and they're not aware that, you know, they they do need time of isolation. And that's that's that's not a bad thing. But what that means is that they know, okay, it's time for me, I'm starting to see some signs of overwhelm and burnout. So I better back off a little bit so I don't get to the point where I have to go to my supervisor and say, I need time off. Because that's not good for that person, it's not good for the company. My point is that in these conversations that I'm having with our team in my new role, it's it's really helping each person to identify who they are when it comes to emotional intelligence and the skills that we're trying to get them to learn. And really it it you you made a great point earlier, Todd, about not every not every company. is is equipped to be able to have one person dedicated to that type of a role. But what it begs people, I hope to think about more is who in the company at this point in time can at least give some attention to that. Whether they have a people team or or someone in operations who can at least give some attention to emotional intelligence. Whether they use that language or not. But getting to the place where everyone is different when it comes to this. There's no right or wrong, there's no everyone has to be the same. But getting individuals to be aware of themselves and how they respond in different situations and then getting the leadership team to be very aware of who their people are so that they can have quality productive conversations across the board that might be significantly different with each person. Which is another skill of emotional intelligence in itself. Right. So I want to maybe switch a bit to the coaching aspect of this. Because, you know, if someone is maybe a bit on the low end of of the EQ scale and could use some support. And quite frankly, I I've coached some people in this in this context. Around someone who, you know, there's a a term called amygdala hijack around EQ, which is sort of the a term for describing, you know, the the uh the more base part of your brain. The emotional response mechanisms kick in and override the prefrontal cortex and you've just respond to things without thinking. And it can get people into a lot of trouble. And I I was coaching someone in particular that that was. sort of suffering through this where they they kept on just kind of running rough shot over people. And and causing some some blow-ups. Their intent was in the right place and they were very much aware of what was going on. They would reflect on it and know that what they had done was potentially incorrect. And and ruffled some feathers. But I found it actually quite difficult to coach on this because of exactly that. Like, the person knew exactly what was going on. So in the coaching, we tended to focus a lot on physical recognition of what's happening, right? So I tried to teach them to understand like, when you feel flushed in the face or you start to clench your jaw, that's a physical response that you're about to explode on someone. And you need to to kind of be aware of those and and kind of intercept that hijack and and modulate your response in certain circumstances. Or just simply the fact that if you do blow up on someone, you have to be. sort of emotionally aware of the impact of that and go back to the person and say, look. That was totally inappropriate, I acted in a way that that I I'm not I'm not proud of. And I apologize, I'll try to try to do better in the future. So, you know, what are your thoughts around that's sort of my experience in coaching around EQ? Like, have you worked in those circumstances where you're trying to help someone to improve their EQ score? And and how do you go about that? Yeah, so there's there's two things that I would say to that. And you've you've described a very perfectly almost a daily occurrence. Where people are busy, they're they're high stress. And so you're right, the the natural response when when we're threatened or when the perception is that we're being threatened is we just we just react. And we we shut that amygdala off and we just respond. So you've you've described it perfectly. The the two things that I would say is when we talk about an EQ score. that comes out of the assessment. it's it's probably not a good idea to say, okay, what do you need to do or what can we do to help you get better or what can we do to help you avoid? Rather it's it's more of a. dialing up certain areas or dialing back. Because to say to go to someone, it's very difficult to have a conversation with someone. To say, wow, according to this EQ assessment. You you suck at self-awareness or like you're really bad at this. Like that that's not helpful at all. No. And so, really it's more like, hey, you're you're really. according to the assessment, you're really high in in these areas and you're lower in these areas. You know what? It is what it is. And in fact. Let me share with you my results from my assessment. I happen to be really high here and really low here. You know what? It is what it is. But let's help each other recognize kind of where we could get tripped up in our daily conversations. And know what we need to dial up or dial back a little bit. And so, the the second thing that I would say in answer to your question is one of the strategies that works really well for us. in in our environment is, okay. When you have a situation, you you just referred beautifully to like the the physical things that kind of like the flush or. you know, the, you know, we we we clench our fist a little bit because we just know that an emotional reaction is coming. Pause, take a breath and be okay in the moment with that awkward silence. And allow yourself to just feel and experience what's going on. And then after you've had a chance to kind of take a breath and collect your thoughts, your blood pressure lowers, your fists unclench. Then have a response to that. And even if you can say to someone, you know what, I I'm I I want to respond to that, but I I'm not ready to. But I'd like to respond later on, like those are very healthy, positive things to do in conversation. But we we don't tend to do that because of how we're wired. And so, but to another person. So that might be a strategy for one person. But to another person, it might be in addition to like take a breath, but it's more of a, okay. Maybe what you need to do is if you're having repetitive difficult conversations with someone. Before you even start to have a conversation, maybe rehearse in your own mind. the many different ways that conversation could go. So if it's really difficult and they respond to you in a way that gets your fists clenched. rehearse what you might say in the moment to diffuse the situation. So that you're not relying on just whatever your brain and your heart and your emotions tell you in the moment. Which sometimes derails conversations. So, the idea of taking a breath for someone or coaching someone to rehearse potential responses in a difficult situation. are helpful things that I've that I've used. Yeah, I like that one a lot. I I've suggested that in the past as well. if you recognize that your response is is uh not going to be uh productive in the conversation, just telling the person that and say, look, man, I I don't think I'm in the place to have this conversation. Give me 10 minutes and I'll get back to you. I think it's a perfectly mature response, I I think the first time that someone hears that, they're going to be like, what? Okay. But they would actually appreciate that after the fact of like, okay, now we can actually have a conversation about this rather than just this stirring an argument as well, right? The other part that you you sort of touched on there that I'll comment on that it is probably a whole other podcast. is is breathing and breath work is something that I've gotten into as sort of a course of the pandemic. Which has been absolutely game-changing, really, really kind of foundational to some of my self-care practices now as well. Which has been really, really incredible. And it breathing has an incredible capability in interfacing with the mind and the body. It it is a game changer, Todd. It's surprising once you get through the awkwardness, like you alluded to. It it's so it's so helpful. And it even like a a 10-second exercise changes absolutely everything. And the amount of clarity that one can get in that short period of time can prevent untold number of crises. And difficult events in the future by just forcing yourself and that's where we talk about emotional skills. That that would be a skill that that could be learned to help one dial up those very specific emotions and dial back some of the others that that aren't as healthy. Well, this has been awesome, Stephen. Really appreciate you coming on to to chat a bit about this. I think um it's something that I think will become a lot more prevalent in more teams and organizations. I think um some of this, you know, we have to look for some of the silver linings that the the pandemic has produced. And one of them being the digital transformation and the ability to work from home, but it does come with some dangers, including isolation and some stilted responses on a on sort of the emotional scale. And I I think it's really, really great that you guys are are taking this so seriously and making it a foundational part of your organization. to to sort of intentionally reshape the landscape when it relates to the emotions and serving people and how they can better perform within an organization. I think it's really amazing. So, credit you guys for for what you're doing and uh appreciate your time. Oh, I appreciate it, Todd. Thanks for your leadership. And love having this conversation. And we really are passionate about it, it's a work in progress and and we we really are not just committed to our own team, but we're committed to providing this as a service to our clients as well. And so, we're we're happy to have conversations with anybody who would like to learn more about this field and approach. Uh so, happy to happy to have those conversations for sure. Okay. Well, we can uh link out on the show notes page. Is there any where anywhere in particular that you would suggest people look to connect with you? They can find me on LinkedIn. But um if they want to get a hold of of the office directly, they can they can email me at uh Steven@kirkofftech.ca. And I'm happy to connect that way too. Awesome. Great, Stephen, have a good one. Thanks, Todd, you too.