ERP073 - Managing Mental Health

The onus is on leaders of organizations and communities to remove the stigmas. Why we talk about it here all the time? You know, my leadership team and myself, we talk about our challenges. And you do have to be careful how you present it because you don't want to come across as unstable. You know, that's the other thing is if it's just all you talk about all the time like, oh my God, I'm so screwed up in the head and like, I got to I can't wait to get to therapy this week. You know, you're going to set a different tone, but you know, when you say, hey, I'm just like you, I have the same challenges, the same stressors, you know, and here's how I'm dealing with it, that's a much healthier way to relate to people. Welcome to Evolved Radio, where we explore the evolution of business and technology. I'm your host, Todd Kane. The Evolved Radio podcast is brought to you by Evolved Management Consulting. It's our mission to help MSPs increase profit and decrease stress. If you're in the MSP industry and manage people, you should really check out my service manager training course. It's like the missing manual for how to run high-performance service delivery teams. Most managers in the IT space have never had any formal training. If you'd like to step up your game and become a successful manager, check out the Evolved Service Manager training course at training.evolvedmgmt.com. That's evolved with a D as in Delta. Or you can visit my homepage and scroll down to the training section. Today on the podcast, I'm joined again by Eric Reeger of Webbit. Eric and I are chatting about the important topic of mental health. It's a heavy topic, but one that doesn't get enough of the spotlight. The IT industry can be extremely challenging field. Lots of demands, risks and an extreme pace of change. Now, after almost two years of a pandemic, the cracks are starting to show in even the most stoic of us of all. In the conversation today, Eric shares his challenges with mental health. We also chat about some of the management practices that can help. So if you're struggling with a mental health challenge or even if you're not, there's a great amount of info for everyone in this episode of the podcast. If you enjoy the show, please consider leaving a rating and review in your favorite podcast app. It really helps to spread awareness and bring more listeners to the show so we can share the message with more of the community. Please relax for an hour, zone out and enjoy the episode. Welcome to the podcast, Eric. Thanks, Todd. I appreciate you having me back, always good to see you and talk to you. Yeah. So you've ran a poll recently on LinkedIn about what challenges people are facing in business as of late. And I think there's certainly some some perennial topics here, one that certainly stood out for you though was burnout. You want to maybe kick us off and and talk a bit about the poll and and what that sort of uncovered for you? Sure. Yeah, the common overarching theme that I'm hearing from clients, prospects, any peers, anybody I'm talking to in business right now is, you know, there's a people problem. And when I say a people problem, I mean, obviously that's a very wide topic that we have all kinds of paths to go down. But what started my interest in it is I read an article that in April 4 million people quit their jobs. Like 4 million people in the United States just quit. They're just I'm done and. So this is like pandemic spillover, right? You know, people are they're burnt out, they're fed up, they saw different ways to do things, different ways to work, different options became available. So in their eyes, you know, more career choices or it it shine some lights on things that they didn't like about the places they were working. So I got curious and I I wanted to see what, you know, LinkedIn land would tell me about what they're facing. And burnout was the winner with I think just under 50% of the respondents. You know, recruiting was the second. You know, trying to find people and, you know, I think they're tied together. You know, there's this whole which goes back to the I think the theme we want to discuss today is mental health in general. The pandemic just it did a number on a lot of people, even businesses that survived and thrived. There was a lot of work, the dynamics changed for a lot of people, health and safety came into it. So it's not surprising that burnout was the the number one thing. I mean, I've even felt it myself. Yeah, 100%. I I agree, you know, I felt the first six months of the pandemic was almost a bit of a relief. Like it was nice to actually have some space and, you know, seeing people being successful, working online. I think there was a lot of kind of rallying around that. And then it was almost an insidious change where I felt, you know, after kind of the first maybe eight or nine months towards a year. I just kind of hit a wall. And all of a sudden I was really tired of it. And I I started to see that all around me where people just started to slip a little bit. And I think you're right, like that that hiring has become a a really fundamental component of this. And people just really struggling to staff appropriately. Also seeing people's inability to kind of take vacation in a traditional fashion. Like you can't really travel anywhere. So I'm actually seeing sort of a people facing an issue of of time off and and pushing people to actually take vacation. And they're like, well, What am I going to do? You know, I'm already kind of sitting here and watching Netflix and and I don't really see the value in taking vacation. Which I think is really dangerous considering sort of the the the high level of burnout that that I think everyone is seeing in their staff and in their peer groups, right? 100%. The burnout factor comes from with the work from home thing, this blurring of the lines between, you know, your personal life and your business life. You know, when we first started the company, you know, we didn't have an office and, you know, I just I worked from home. And, you know, as an entrepreneur, you're already in that mindset of just work, work, work, work, work. But it it it really was I couldn't wait to get an office just to have a place to go. And, you know, as soon as we started opening back up, it was a it was a big change here. And I'm an introvert by nature, it's something that surprises a lot of people because I play an extrovert on TV and in my my professional life. That's just how I adapt to, you know, what the business needs from me and what my role is. But my preferred natural state is I'd rather be with a book and a tree than a person. Any day of the week, 100% of the time. And the joke started going around is, you know, us introverts have been practicing for this pandemic our whole lives. And I I'm right there with you at about the six-month mark, it was like, all right, I'm done with this. I do need human interaction, the video conferences don't work. You know, it was just there was that piece missing. And, you know, for the for the people who, you know, hadn't had that experience before or are extroverts, it it hit them extra hard. You know, because you took away the part that made them productive and and connected and all all of that stuff. So everybody had mental health problems in just from different angles. And, you know, the stigma that's always attached to mental health is, you know, we. If you had a bone sticking out of your leg, there'd be no problem going to a doctor. Nobody put any shame on you for putting your leg in a cast. But there's no bone that sticks out of your head when things aren't going right up there. So it's the common depression thing, it's like, oh, just be happy. Oh. Oh, I didn't know it was that easy. I just put a smile on and I didn't think of that. Yeah. I'm similar, I'm uh I'm an introvert by nature and. As you said, I I play the part of an extrovert in in certain circumstances because, you know, that's the role in a lot of ways. But it was interesting in the pandemic because again, like I felt like this, you know, great. Now everyone lines up in the way that I need and and, you know, I'm not really missing much. But what I found is I was surprised personally by occasionally I would run into that point where I would just really miss human connection. There were circumstances where I would get out and kind of meet people locally and go out for coffee and chat with people. And I I actually missed that, which was a little surprising to me because I I think I started to recognize to some degree actually what how extroverts feel. Where, you know, they're kind of missing that recharge from from conversations and interactions. And in in more personally with people. You know, the the having lots of conversations virtually is is fine. But, you know, I I really recognized the distinction of that personal interaction and and human connection. As I said, which was surprising. Well, the the other thing that I've I've been in tune with now. And, you know, I I I read a lot, so just keeping on top of what, you know, people, the doctors in the industries who who deal with mental health and fatigue and burnout and stuff like that. You know, when you're on a a Zoom call or a Teams call. There's the distraction factor. So like I've got three screens up in front of me at all times. You know, I can be on a call, you know, with somebody, but if the email is dinging on the other screen. You know, my attention's not quite there. In person, you can't do that. You know, and some people do, you know, like you're your your you've been around the people who have their phone. And they're kind of half listening to you while they're watching their phone. Like that it's it's. Screwed basically. But, you know, it's easier to connect with somebody in person because there's less of a distraction factor. And I think that attributed to some of this zoom burnout that they talk about too. Is you know, people were just on calls all day. Just because it made it more accessible to get into somebody's calendar and it's easier to just pop on a video than having to walk over and talk to somebody or go drive in a car. But the fact that we had more of these forced us to multitask, which is not a thing. I mean, it's you're doing two things poorly at once. So I think that attributed to some of the burnout on the Zoom calls is because you were you weren't getting the entire intention, you weren't getting the entire presence of a person. And, you know, that made it less impactful and, you know, and you feel that. You know, it's like, hey, this person's not paying attention to me. You feel that in yourself that, okay, so I I'm less important in their eyes. Or, you know, all those things start to spiral out of control for everybody. And I think that is another factor that attributed to the burnout. Like one of the tactical components on this that I've heard and tried to implement a lot for myself personally is turning off the self view in Zoom. I recognize that this made a difference somehow, but then I actually read an article suggesting that there's a psychological weight of seeing yourself. Because you're your brain is sort of subconsciously conscious of what you're doing. And adds sort of this extra weight in your perception. And just by turning off the self view, you become a little less self-conscious about what you're actually doing. And through the course of the conversation. And that's something that I think has helped a lot, so uh takeaway or a tactic that people can leverage there is turning off the self view. And it's one of the things that, you know, there's a bunch of things that sort of bother me about how much teams is sort of lagged behind the capabilities of Zoom. Teams doesn't have that function to be able to disable that. And and that that's a a bit of a miss, I hope that that hiding yourself you becomes an option to add in in Teams conversations as well. Because as I said, I've I've felt a big difference in that in in being able to turn off the self view in Zoom. I like the idea and the concept, I'm going to definitely use that one. Because, you know, over the last 18 to 20 months, watching how gray my hair has gotten and gray the beard has gotten. It's, you know, I could definitely use less of that. Yeah. So. Let's flip back to this, like we're obviously chatting about kind of mental health and and the burnout and and sort of the fatigue that people are feeling. And let's relate this to some of our our personal journeys. And we both connected on this with the sort of some common ideology and some common thoughts on this. Do you want to start off and just kind of give us the scope of your journey and and your exposure to to mental health for your personal journey as well as in your business? Sure. When you're a leader of an organization, it's even more critical because you set the tone and the pace. And for the longest time, since I can remember is a, you know, early adulthood, you know, teenage years. I I'd suffered from depression and I didn't necessarily know. Just being having this heaviness, this weight, this sadness all the time was just kind of who I was. And, you know, one of the things I found, you know, through this journey is that there's different types of depression. You know, I had a conversation, a pretty lengthy one with Richard Tubb, who I know you you have on the show and communicate with a lot. He's got a different journey than I did and, you know, his is more clinical diagnose. You know, there's chemical element to it. I don't have that. Like I don't have a chemical imbalance that medication can address. So mine has a bunch of different elements to it. So there's there's parts from my childhood. I was fortunate to have a coach who stayed on me to guide me into getting into therapy. And the therapy was a a breakthrough for uncovering, you know, all kinds of things in my childhood with my parents. Specifically my mother that just attributed to a lot of the negativity in my life and outlooks. Just the way I address people, the way I thought. And when my father passed away, he was the buffer and when the buffer was gone, just the weight of her negativity. Just constantly made me a not nice person. And it got to the point where it was spilling over into the professional career. And it was impacting the culture here. So getting into therapy, one of the first things, you know, I I talked about with my therapist is like, you know, I I I think I had a fairly normal childhood. And she's like, well, based on what, like everybody's childhood was different. You can't compare the two. So that first hour of therapy really kind of opened a lot of doors to uncovering parts of where depression seeped in. Now, there's also two other elements in in my personal journey. One is I read one of Malcolm Gladwell's books that talks about dyslexia. Being a catalyst for depression, especially early on in in your development. And I think it's like 1/60th of a second, there's a there's a hearing component to dyslexia when you're developing. That, you know, a normal child can can hear and comprehend and from spelling and, you know, because most people think of dyslexia is just transposing names or numbers and letters. And that's a that's a a symptom of it. But it's it's it's really auditory to where you're not able to process the sounds and the words as quick as other people. So you kind of fall behind a little bit. And then that makes you feel stupid and it leads to depression. So I also had eyesight problems when I was a child that weren't diagnosed right away. So I couldn't see and I was had comprehension. So, you know, that started the the dyslexia was part of it. And I was undiagnosed for a really long time. So I can't I reading books is hard for me, but listening, I absorb. You know, I'm an auditory listener. But the dyslexia was was a contributing factor to some of the childhood depression. I never knew that until I read I forget which of Gladwell's books. I I love him as an author, so I've I've read everything he's ever written. But it was in one, it was I I remember it was chapter four. But he talked about I dove into dyslexia. I was fascinated, I played it over and over again. I'm like, this is definitely contributing factor. And then I've been in a prior life, I was more athletic and I I played hockey for 30 years and I I suffered 10 concussions. Two fairly major, I got hit in the head with a slap shot from a person who was one year removed from the NHL. Right off the face, broke the mask, the whole nine yards, couldn't hear or see for three days, I mean it was it was brutal. Wow. I've had, you know, one other major concussion and then 10 other or eight other minor ones. And I'm I'm starting to see that that's going to have an effect on me long-term. You know, I'm starting to have some issues with memory. You know, and and unfortunately, at this stage they're at right now, they can't do anything for the CTEs. They they really can't even diagnose it until you're dead and they do an autopsy on your brain and find the spots. So you see all this with the NFL, contact sports. You know, they're it's why helmets have been redesigned and they're trying to protect the damage. But, you know, I was playing sports in the 70s, 80s and 90s and, you know, it was just shake it off, rub some dirt on it, go back out there. So there's a lot of contributing factors, but, you know, really for me getting in front of a therapist. Helped in a lot of ways to identify triggers, to identify, you know, areas I need to do improve. And and it, you know, one of the things wound up is I eventually had to remove my mother from my life. So it's been two years since I've had any contact with my mother. And it was, you know, and people. They're they always look sad when I tell them that story and it's like, no, you should be happy for me. It was like the best thing I ever did for myself. I had reached a point in my life right before therapy that I I've never been suicidal. I've never thought about harming myself. But I would go to bed every night praying that I would not wake up the next day. Wow, that's heavy. That's how deep the depression got is that I just didn't have a a will to live anymore. And there are studies where you actually can get to a point where you lose your will to live and you can die from that. It it gets to be that dangerous. Now, the flip side of it is, I, you know, when I first went to my therapist, I I talked about. I I will not take medication, I I went in there with the the set, you know, predetermined conception. I'm not taking medication. And part of what drives that is my childhood friend from that I grew up next door. He had also suffered from depression and decided to go seek help. And he he went to a different type of therapy. Because there's there's you know, some therapists will only work with you and they're they're not they don't prescribe and some are just that's all they do is prescribe. So it's really important you understand when you're in your journey to find a good therapist to take your time. Um, I got good counsel from a lot of sources who had been in therapy to yeah, interview him. And if they don't want to they won't interview you, then you know, just move on because they're not going to be a good fit. And so I found one and I told her I said she's like, well, I don't prescribe anyways. She said, but if if we do find that there's a chemical imbalance, then you need to take that into consideration because you won't get better if you don't fix that. So that's an important part of the story, I think is to is to make sure you do your due diligence. When you're going through the the therapeutic process. First to get somebody to help identify what the sources of of your problems are and whether or not medication's right. So my friend went, sought help, they immediately put him on medication. Three days later, he he committed suicide. So that weighed heavy on me that, you know, I wish I had a chance to talk to him beforehand. About the journey, about why, but he was trying to get in front of a problem. That was, you know, recurring every year around the same time, there's seasonal, you know, family elements that that played into it. And, you know, I I don't know all the details, so I can't sit here and pass judgment and say he went to the wrong person. But when you connect the dots, you know, you weren't taking medication. You weren't suicidal. Three days later, you're gone and the medication's the only difference. It's a tough thing, but if we don't talk about it. Then he died for nothing. You know, if we don't put that out there and and let people know that it's not just a matter of raising your hand and going to get help. It's actively taking a role to interview these people to make sure you're getting the right type of help. And it's okay to take your time. Obviously, if you're suicidal, you you need to get help immediately. If you're if you're at that stage. And, you know, for me, part of the journey, being at that point where I didn't want to live anymore. Where I wanted to go to bed just not wake up. I mean, that was a dangerous place to be. And, you know, fortunately, I had a coach and and a friend, mentor, whatever you want to label him. That knew how to push the right buttons and, you know, be firm when he needed to. But also be gentle of the, you know, like you need to do this for yourself. And prior to getting on you and I talked about that book, you know, push your oxygen mask on first. It's a it's a great book if you can't if you're not in a good spot, you can't help people. You just you can't lead a company, you can't help other people. So, you know, that's a lot to unpack. I'll stop talking for a minute and let you kind of chime in here. Yeah. One of the parts that I really want to sort of underline here that you touched on sort of a couple of times and certainly off the top. Is that the stigma around this is so damaging, right? That. Yep. Just the idea that if I admit to this, it's a some form of weakness. And I think that that is the narrative that absolutely needs to change. And I really applaud a lot of the people, yourself, obviously, Richard and Nigel Moore have all been quite public about this. And speaking about their journey and and their struggles with mental health as well. And I think all of those narratives are incredibly important to give people sort of the space and the freedom to not feel like they need to reserve these thoughts and these ideas as private. And sure, there's there's some hesitancy around how much you share and and sort of detailing your story in that to that degree and being quite personal. It's it's appreciated, right? Because. We don't get this opportunity that much from a lot of people to to to really dig deep and understand sort of what people struggle with. Because they often just sort of try to cover over it and and that's almost the worst way to try and manage any type of mental health issue. It could be quite simple. And it could be really complex and really big and and a and a real beast in your life. But the distinction is is that expression that I like is that pain is relative, right? One man's hangnails, another man's life crisis. So whatever you feel is is personal. And that's not it's not fair to compare it to anything else and say, you know, well, I shouldn't feel this. Or I have no right to be down on myself because I have all of these things. It's kind of irrelevant. Right, and I think that that really that key component of just being more open in spaces where you feel that that there is some safety around that. I think is incredibly helpful. And you can't get help with these things, regardless of what they are. You know. Some people will need medication. Some people talk therapy works. Like some people just need to have better habits in their life. Right. Like all of those things are necessary, but unless you're able to admit these things to yourself. And be able to address them in some fashion, you can't get started. I think the more people that talk about these types of issues, the more comfortable that others will be with sharing their story. Or at least starting to explore their own journey and understand some of the the parts that that that will affect them. The other part that you noted, I think is also worth underlining. Is that. I would say almost everyone has some type of mental health struggle that they they deal with. Whether or not it's full-blown or they even recognize it. That is a question. But the pandemic has certainly underlined that these these issues and the struggles that people have inside their head. Are much more prevalent than anyone ever realized beforehand. And this the the pandemic has really sort of spotlighted that for everybody because, you know, people that never really thought that that that mental health was a struggle for them. All of a sudden, eight to nine months into this, like they're really wondering what the hell is going on. And and starting to actually struggle with some things that have never really been apparent in their lives before. And then the people that have had mental health struggles in their life just becomes amplified. So again, like this this is an important discussion to have and that awareness and just willingness to admit that, you know, maybe I could work on my squishy stuff a little more. And and just be more open to that, I think is is really, really important. Well, it it goes back to, you know, when you're talking about removing the stigma. We see so much of this in this country right now in the United States. Of this polarization, it's happening all over the world. You're either you agree with me or you're on, you know, you're you're a bad person. And, you know, so the people who don't think they have mental health problems, you know, I I don't know why mental health gets attacked more than anything. You know, maybe it's still that that whole patriarchal, you know, male dominate. You know, we we have to be strong at all times. You know, my father when he was going through his battle with cancer. Him and I had a lot of deep talks, you know, towards the end and, you know, he said. I wish I had gone to a doctor sooner, but, you know, I grew up in a time where, you know, if if if the the men were looked at as weak if they if they showed any sign of weakness. And I thought that this is the stupidest thing. In, you know, and I never said it to him, but I mean, it's just it just shows. Like this is this is what you get for that, right? You're denying yourself the care. And I don't know what the statistics are relative to, you know, males versus females in terms of, you know, I'm sure there's also socioeconomic. You know, people who are have have better lifestyles, have better access to better care. There's there's so many different branches we could go down that it's it's disproportionately available to people in certain classes and certain statuses and things like that. Which we have to change that as well. Like it should be available, it should be just one of those basic human rights. Everybody should have access to health care in my personal opinion. Is everybody should be you everybody listening to this has a doctor. Everybody has a primary care physician, you should have a primary care therapist too. Whatever that looks like for you, you know, it's we all picked doctors on different things. I think you should have a therapist. And technology has made it, so, you know, there's there's what is it, talk space. Betterment. Talk space or betterment. Yeah, yeah. Or no, better help. Betterment's the investment thing. Don't go to there. Oh, sure. I mean, you could still use it. That's not a knock on him, but you're going to get different advice there for your financial future. But, you know, you don't even have to you could just pick up your cell phone and download an app and and start trying to find a therapist that way. Nobody even has to know. You know, you can if you want to keep it to yourself. The important part is getting the help first and the onus is on leaders of organizations and communities. To remove the stigmas, why we talk about it here all the time. You know, my leadership team and myself, we talk about our challenges. And you do have to be careful how you present it because you don't want to come across as unstable. You know, that's the other thing is if it's just all you talk about all the time. Like, oh my God, I'm so screwed up in the head and like, I got to I can't wait to get to therapy this week. You know, you're going to set a different tone, but, you know, when you say, hey, I'm just like you. I have the same challenges, the same stressors, you know, and here's how I'm dealing with it. That's a much healthier way to relate to people, then you're you're breaking down this these barriers of, you know, first the perception that the leader has to be, you know, invincible and all knowing and all seeing. Which is absolutely opposite of what a leader should be. You start to break those barriers down. I think more and more people will be open to say, okay, well, if if he can go. I I certainly am feeling a lot of that, I I I don't feel bad for going. And then maybe another person talks about it. And soon if, you know, half of the company is not only talking about it, but the benefits of it are starting to show. That's where you'll see the sea change and you'll you'll see this become more widely acceptable. And I would love it if more companies offered that as a perk. You know, get rid of the ping-pong tables, get rid of the foosball. Offer, you know, the talk space account. And whether people take it up on it or not, that's, you know, that's the next stage of the journey. But I think those are perks that are going to be a lot more in demand if we if we continue to change the narrative. And and lead with intention of, you know, here's here's what I'm struggling with. And if you're a leader that hasn't adopted that yet, I would start with yourself. Look in the mirror and, you know, start to break your own barriers down. And and say, you know, because if if you're a leader that says I don't have any mental health problems, you're you're fooling yourself. Especially after what we all just went through the last 18 to 20 months. Yeah, and also especially as a leader. Because the weight is so much heavier because you you're carrying people's livelihood. If you have staff, they're dependent on you for food, clothing and shelter. That can be a psychological burden. That maybe you're not aware of. But it's 100% true. There certainly is more of a burden in leadership and owning a company, being responsible for for people's livelihood. Is is not to be taken lightly. I think the other piece like noting kind of these things potentially being benefits. I think is is is brilliant, right? The the preventative aspect of this, I think is really key because. If you run people to burnout and don't support them, then, you know, you're losing productivity. You're potentially having people quit because they're too stressed or they're looking for changes in their lives. And and that's that has an implication. And I I don't have the statistics on hand, but I've heard these statistics in the past. That there's billions of dollars lost in productivity due to mental health in in every industry across the board. And it's not necessarily viewed that way, but, you know, especially in the work that I've done leading teams and helping people lead teams. Nine out of 10 times, every team has that one person that consistently doesn't show up to work and calls in sick on a Monday. Right. Like it's always on a Monday. Like they were probably partying and drinking too hard as a compensating mechanism for other issues that they're facing. Right. Some people are just partying. Other people, it's more systemic than that, right? And I think that those things need to be understood and potentially viewed that way. And I've I've worked with staff directly that have suffered with mental health issues and and the leadership sort of viewed them as as a liability. And not as productive. And and I've said, you know, let me let me see what I can do with this. And just having good conversations with people, figuring out the structure that works, how we can sort of support them better. The turnaround that you can see from people that are not potentially being supported as well as they could in their role is dramatic. Right, just giving the space that people need, giving them some support and compassion around what they're dealing with. Can be incredibly beneficial. And in a lot of ways, engenders a lot of loyalty. Because people recognize you're seeing them as a full human that you actually care. And you're you're building systems for their work that actually supports their capabilities. So there's a lot of things that can be done from a leadership perspective that I think are incredibly important. And that sort of segues to another piece. That I wanted to talk about that I think is incredibly risky. And I'll maybe sort of leave her into this with my own personal story related to this. But. Certainly what I see in a lot of a lot of businesses and and the owners that I work with, managing IT companies and other companies independently of that. That they tend to associate a lot of their own self-worth with the company. And the company and their work and their personal identity are so intertwined. That it becomes really dangerous because what happens with one happens with the other. And sort of my my relationship to this was very early on in my career. I was working for a very, very high growth company and doing quite well, rising up in the ranks. And then, you know, some things changed, some things shifted and I ended up leaving that role. And it was a real psychological break for me because I had so identified with that work. And my my work that once I was not in that role anymore, I really struggled with kind of who I was and what my self-worth was. And that's such a dangerous way to to be. That if there's implications or or things that happen in your work life or your personal life. And having them so related that one suffers while the other one suffers is is super dangerous. And what I found is I actually had to take some time off, there's been a couple of times in my life where I've I've sort of left work for six months to a year. And just sort of taken a bit of a mission leave. And I think that that's an important aspect for especially people that are younger in their career, if you have that opportunity, you should take it. And I think looking for those opportunities to find who you are independent of your career is really, really helpful. They can't be so intertwined that that one suffers when the other one does as well. There's a book I just finished reading. Uh, it's by Chip Connelly, it's called Wisdom at Work. And it's it's geared towards, you know, mostly the over 50 crowd, you know, you can even over 40 you can start getting a lot a lot out of it. But they talk about, you know, the stages of your life and, you know, when you talk about the business owner being intertwined with the business. And and looking at success that way. One of the things he talks about is in in your transition, you know, are you moving from the sage on the stage to the guide on the side? And that if you hadn't put any thought and intention into it, that that could be a huge mental shift to have to make. Of, you know, being the leader to now just being an advisor in a different type of role or different capacity. And, you know, going back to what you were saying, I think a lot of this starts with the intention of why you got into business the first place. What you're trying to get out of it. And, you know, I I've talked to people a lot and in every peer group I've ever been part of, exit strategy is is a hot topic of conversation. And that was something that I struggled with for a really long time. You know, in our family, you basically work till you drop dead and then it was somebody else's problem. And so I don't have anybody taking over the business, you know, there's no family members that are going to come second generation or or what have you. So. That's not a way to recruit people, like, well, what happens if you die? Call the attorney and figure it out. I don't know. That's, you know, you're not you're not going to attract a lot of great talent, you know, with that that risk sitting out there. So that led us down, you know, the open book path and now, you know, we just signed the paperwork for the valuation to do the ESOP. Which you and I talked about in a previous episode. But that it goes back to the whole like, why did you get into it in the first place? What's your plan? And the saying is always heavy is the head that wears the crown. It can be a lot heavier if you're not looking at your people as anything more than just a means to an end. So if if you're there and it's all about you maximizing the value of the return when you sell. Keep in mind, there's a lot of people that are putting in their heart and soul if you're doing it right into creating that value that's going to create that payday for you. And most people have a conscience and I think they're not dealing with that choice properly. In terms of, you know, you get to that point and somebody puts an offer in front of you and you got to sign it. And all of a sudden you're in a millions of dollars in the bank and then you're done and then what? You know, and I and I've. I get asked a lot like, well, what are you going to do, you know, after you retire? And I said, retire is not a like it's never going to be a thing for me. I'm always going to be doing something that's how I'm going to stay alive. And then I run down the list of all the things I want to achieve before I leave this world and they're like, holy crap, you've really put some thought into this. And I'm like, yeah. There's things that I've learned, like this is why every time you ask if I want to come on. I'm like, yeah. If I can share stuff that I've learned along the way and help the next generation to not make so many mistakes. That's value I'm leaving behind. And hopefully those people carry on and those people carry on. And and those types of things. And I don't think we put enough emphasis in, you know, there's really no MSP training school. Right. There's no. You know, anybody can just open up a shingle tomorrow and say, hey, I'm an MSP and, you know, nobody can actually refute that. Like, okay, if that's what you're calling yourself. And there's a lot in any business, there's a lot of navigation challenges and pitfalls and if you if you're just trying to survive day to day. You'll find yourself in a place if you're lucky at some point to where, okay, now all these things that have happened. I've got decisions to make. And and I I think all of that weighs into what that heaviness you were talking about. And and, you know, why owners tend to struggle because there's a conscience talking because if you see these people every day. And you work with them and you see the efforts they're putting in, it's almost impossible to not recognize the value they're creating for you as the business owner. So, you know, that's a whole another rabbit hole we could go down maybe another day. But that's, you know, that's why I get into a lot of heated debates with people about their philosophy of why they started. And I don't begrudge anybody for, you know, wanting to make money. And that's, you know, if that's your thing, if it's a lifestyle business, just be up front with the people who are working with you. There are people out there who just want nine to five jobs and they'll come in, they'll give you a good effort and they don't want anything in return for it. But your expectations have to be a little lower. You'll sleep a little easier at night too, knowing that you're being transparent with people. And not, you know, kind of leaving them holding the bag at some point in the future. Because that's that's going to be a heavy day. Yeah, and I think that that also lends to sort of the the onus on the leader. To template some of this and and provide sort of a example of of good behavior around kind of mental health. And a suggestion that I heard from uh a leader in a in another podcast that I was listening to recently is that he suggests to actually kind of be vocal and visible about taking mental health days when you need them. And the the interviewer asked like, if you're not sort of suffering from that or or you don't feel like you need one, should you just pretend to take one anyway as a demonstration of that? And he said, yeah. It's probably a good idea. And I like that idea of like, just kind of templating it for people. That look, if you're really suffering and and you need sort of some space just to, you know, chill out or go for a walk or or something. Like you're just feeling the pressure of a week, then, you know, that's fine. Just like you can take a sick day and identify what it is. Not, oh, sorry, I've got the flu. It's just like, hey, man, you know, I'm I'm feeling really stretched thin. And I'm just going to take a day and decompress. Like anyone that asked me of that on my team, I would be like, absolutely, what can I do for you? And we'll figure it out, right? I would rather people be more transparent about that and saying, I'm just feeling a little burnt out. And I and I need to take a day versus just trying to lie to me so that they they they can, you know, call it a sick day. And and feel better about it. So I I think being able to model that and being visible to to take those that space when you need it. Or in some cases, maybe you don't and you still model it anyway, I think helps to create some of that psychological safety of non-judgment. Right, that, well, the boss has sort of said, you know, he struggles with the these things sometimes and he just needs a break, so, you know, obviously I would be allowed to do the same. And again, like that's. It's it's part of that same idea of just simply removing the stigma around this goes a long way to allowing people to be able to be more transparent about how they're feeling and how they can actually manage it themselves as well. There's a couple things that we've touched on over the last few minutes. And, you know, so for me, personally. When I get into a bad space, you know, and it manifests itself here, I've learned at least I've got, you know, I I'm very fortunate to have a great leadership team as part of this organization. That I can vent to a little bit. So that it doesn't spill out everywhere. I'm still not like the best at it, so it happens sometimes. And then I'm also fortunate to have people who quick to call me out on the on the bad behavior of like, hey, look, that just that just can't happen. You can't be the negativity person, you're you're bringing everybody down and they're working really hard. And, you know, I I. I recently took some time off, went up to Michigan for a vacation. You know, I stayed a little connected here, shared some of the pictures and the things I was doing. But I didn't interject myself in the business at all while I was away. Outside of just, you know, hey, look. I'm I'm having a good time. I'm doing some things that I like. And I I encourage people to do that. If they want to just completely disconnect, that's fine. If they want to, you know, because we've got kind of a little family thing going here now where everybody's a little bit more invested in each other's lives. So we're a little different in that regard. You you kind of mentioned, you know, every business has that one person who's calling in on a Monday. We used to have that problem like everybody else and and at least not to the fact that I'm aware of it. I don't think we have any of that. But part of what we've been intentional about is especially with our our the people who are, you know, maybe putting in some extra long hours. You know, making sure they get comp time when they're when they're putting that extra time in. And then and then encouraging them to use it. And I think because we're open book and because we share all the, you know, information about the business. They're more aware of if they take time off, the ramifications it could have if they just do it in an unplanned manner. So the fact that we're open about and encouraging people to, yeah, if you're putting in extra hours. Definitely take advantage of the comp time. And then just work with people. If you're having a bad day and a mental health, you certainly, you know, want to let people take that time off. So, you know, again, as a leader. Encouraging that, showing up and being present, not bringing negativity, a lot of that plays in. And you know, we talked before about the, you know, making the the mental health benefits as part of maybe a compensation package. There's still a long way to go in that arena, I think because we actually did a poll for our our team here. And we were going to, I had already reached out to a talk space and and better help. And and they do have corporate packages available. And so, you know, again, being open book, you have to kind of vet everything through because it's another expense. And do they see it? And we didn't have a single person show any interest in that being a perk they valued. Even though we were going to pay for it. And just make it available. Everybody use it or don't use it. And we set up an anonymous, there's a a tool you can use to allow people to provide anonymous feedback. Say, hey, this is a very sensitive topic. We understand, you know, you might not be the one that wants to raise the hand or you might not want to provide feedback. Here's a link. We would have no idea who's who's mentioning this. There was so much more interest in a 401k match versus the mental health aspect. So I think we still have a long way to go even here from the education standpoint. Of return on investment and, you know, there's still even as much as we talk about it, I think there's still a long way to go in terms of getting people to. You know, even understand what that looks like or what the benefit is or even the stigma of of saying I'm in therapy. Maybe we have to change that. Maybe it's stop saying I'm in therapy. You know, maybe it's just hey, I've I've, you know, because I look at it. It's just it's another coach and another mentor. A mental health coach. Yeah. I mean, maybe we can make that this podcast will be the start of that movement. Is, you know, I got a coach for everything else. And if it makes me a better, stronger person, a better leader. Why wouldn't you? Right. Yeah. No, I think that makes a ton of sense for sure. It's interesting. Part of it, I think is just stigma. I think some of it is also just sort of self-recognition of that. Right. And I think all of us have been through this. Maybe it's just something that you earn over time. Through, you know, our our age and our wisdom. I think like you, I had some awareness of struggles with depression when I was younger. But really, you know, until you're older, you don't necessarily know what to do with it. Or certainly recognize the impact that it that it plays in your life. Right. There's so many other ways that you can just sort of put some salve on it. And sort of both a lot of negative ways, sometimes positive ways. But I think most people just sort of smooth over it and try to ignore the parts of them that they don't necessarily want to recognize. So, you know, some of it is self-awareness. But, you know, that that also is probably supported by people just feeling more more comfortable to be aware. And to recognize the parts of themselves that they're not as proud of. Right. You talked about wisdom. You know, that comes with age. And, you know, I I reflect back on when I was younger. And knew more. You know, thought I knew more. I'm really starting to comprehend what wisdom really is now. The older I get and the more things I've been through. And, you know, especially when I'm talking to younger people, I'm like, man, I was just like you. And I they they just don't have the benefit of the years. To have that wisdom. And, you know, I think that just puts the onus more on on those of us who have been around a lot longer. And and who are in leadership positions to. You know, try and impart the wisdom without being a know it all. You know, without without trying to seem like, okay, I've got all the answers now just because I'm in my 50s. You know, because then the the the person in their 60s comes around the corner, oh, you think you've got all the answers, do you? You wait till your next decade passes you by. You're you're in for so much fun. Yeah. 100% true. I want to switch a bit. Perhaps we can talk about sort of management methods. And, you know, obviously talk therapy being one of them. Medication if required. But I think there's also just some fundamentals that I I don't feel get a lot of recognition about their power to influence your psychology. And for me, you know, I come at this quite honestly, you know, I I've struggled with depression most of my life as well. And some of the things that I've learned about how to actually manage that in a in an appropriate method have been really beneficial for me. And, you know, I'm a a self-described biohacker. You know, I wear my aura ring, my watch, I track everything. It drives my wife crazy. I'm I'm always sort of checking my stats in the morning. And I test, you know, how late can I eat? What type of alcohol affects me differently, all kinds of things that that that I try to map out and figure out about my life. In order to sort of maximize my potential, I suppose. And a lot of that, honestly, comes as sort of self-experimentation to try and combat the things that I've fought with. And wrestled with my brain for so long. And some of the things that I think are really key here, and I think this is echoed by anyone that talks on this this topic. With some experiences. Sleep is fundamental. And this is something that I think gets wasted a lot. On young people. You know, I was certainly one of those people that would stay up playing games until three or four in the morning. You know, I'd be at the bars partying way too late and and my sleep really suffered. But as you get older, certainly, and I think this this even if you're younger, capitalize on this. Getting seven to eight hours of good, clean sleep is incredibly helpful for your psychology. So that's the one that I think is is. Underpins almost everything else, secondarily and probably competitive for the number one position. As far as management is diet, eating a trash diet and eating a clean diet. The difference is night and day for me personally. I just find the the impact of when I'm not eating responsibly. I don't want to place any judgment around what you eat necessarily. But whatever works for you, works for you. I just find like eating responsibly is is really, really helpful. And supports all of these other things. And then exercise. I traditionally was not a person that exercised a lot. It sort of came in bits and bits and spurts and as I had different hobbies and sports and interests in my life. But I was never really consistent about it until actually quite recently. And have noticed sort of a dramatic impact for that as well. And then a couple more. Meditation or some type of breath work has been really helpful. I find that that's probably the one that is most difficult for me to stick to, unfortunately. But it really does help to sort of quiet the mind. I'm definitely one of those people that has a very busy brain. I suffered from severe, severe insomnia when I was kind of in my early 20s. And have sort of found yoga as a a method for really managing that well. And since found meditation and breath work to be incredibly supportive in in in managing those parts of my brain. And then finally, the a big one is scheduling. And we've kind of touched on this a little bit, but I think this is one that's probably really easy for people to implement. Despite sort of the pushback that I get from people when I suggest this. Is sometimes you just need to schedule some time in your calendar. As unscheduled time. And there are certain times where I recognize I've got a busy week or a busy couple of weeks. And I'll look forward a week or two. And I'll block off a day. Just to say like, you know, all the other things that pile up and the responsibilities that I have, at least I have that day where I can just do whatever I want. Often I end up doing a lot of administrative work and getting some stuff done. Sometimes I'll just go sit in the backyard and read a book. Or watch a show or play some games. And I think giving yourself that space to sort of block things off and and being intentional about having time to yourself. Is really, really critical. So that's kind of my. Laundry list of management techniques. Any any input there or or what you've found effective, Eric? Oh, yeah. So we'll probably have another show on this. But so there's a really good book. Rob Dubay. He's part of that small Giants community we're part of. He wrote a book called Do Nothing. And it's about mindfulness and meditation. And he's actually got a retreat in October in Colorado at this mountainside place. Where you go and there's like three three days is pretty much spent in silence. And so I'm going to try that for the first time this year and there's like kind of the over under on if I'm going to make it three hours without talking, much less three days. But you know, there's there's definitely something to when I was in therapy. The one of the first things I was talking to my therapist about is I said, I can't shut my brain off. And a lot of entrepreneurs have that, it's common with, you know, you you have the dyslexia. You have the ADD. It's very common. And this just constant, my brain won't shut off and even diet and exercise hasn't changed the the way that that's wired. And she told me, and I said, one of the things I feel like is that there's 10 radio stations going on at the same time. But I'm tuned into all 10. I'm listening to all 10 at the same time. I can be in a restaurant and I could be having a conversation looking right at you, I can be present, I can be, you know, I I I can work this conversation. Totally focused and in the moment and I'm also part of the other 20 conversations going on. And if somebody walked over, I could actually go sit down at their table if I can hear enough of what's going on. And I can actually interject myself into the conversation. I said it borderline drives me crazy sometimes. Because it's too much information. And she shared with me. She goes, well, just so you know, about 20% of the population is like that. She goes, I'm one of those people. And I said, yeah, it's like, and and for me, it's like when I'm having a conversation with somebody who's not gifted in that way. And I feel like they're not paying attention. It drives me insane. And she goes, yeah, those the other 80% really get under our skin. And I'm like, okay, well, what do we do about it? She's like, you know, and then then we started talking about exercise and diet and and all those things. And for me, personally, I was my health was about the same time I started therapy. My my physical health was getting worse. And I did something really really simple, again, a techy thing. I I went to the App Store. And I got myself an app. And I downloaded the new map, I paid like 90 bucks for a year of it or whatever it was, and I but I dedicated to like, I'm actually going to do it. And follow the psychology behind it. That's that's why I chose that app. Is it was it was not just a diet program, it was teaching me the psychology behind my choices. Stress eating's a big thing in our industry, I mean, you'll see a lot of people overweight because they stress eat. That's how they compensate. Yeah. And so I when I learned that and then I just started walking. You walk a, you know, five minutes a day. Then it's 10 minutes a day. It's a gradual progression. Well, I was I got up to the point where I was walking five to 10 miles a day, at least five days a week. So that result of that is I was at the podiatrist yesterday because now I have, you know, a potential plantar fasciitis problem. But. It's it's good to have a team of people, mental, physical health because as as you're on these journeys. Like I tend to as as a lot of entrepreneurs do, I tend to then go in another. You know, I go all in on the direction. And there can be other consequences. The older you get, your body doesn't recover as quickly, especially if you're not paying attention to your diet. You know, when I was playing hockey. You know, around here in Chicago, you know, once the Black Hawks started winning. Our games, you know, like now the high schools. Taking the ice time. Our sometimes our games weren't starting till 11:30 at night for a men's league game. And so now you go play a game, you get off the ice at like 1:30 in the morning, you're having a beer, you're driving home. You know, you got not at the same time. You you're driving you're driving home after the game. And you're getting to bed around 3:00 in the morning and you got a 5:30 wake up because hey, that's you you had to start a business. You're you're walking in. Dragging and people are like, what's going on? You can't function on two hours of sleep, especially if you're dehydrated and, you know, getting the crap kicked out of you on the ice or whatever you do. So. I had to make a conscious decision to effectively retire from that sport. Because my body wasn't able to recover, it was affecting me in the office. All those types of things. So you do have to start, you know, at some point, especially once you reach your 30s. You know, metabolism starts slowing down, your body doesn't recover. All that stuff plays into your mental health. If you're not taking care of your physical self, if you're not getting that sleep. Also share with you, you know, like your mattress. Yes. It seems like a little thing, but like if you have a a bad mattress with bad support. I have I'm missing part of my disc in my L5 disc in my back, I've got arthritis in my knee. So it's hard for me to just get comfortable. I got arthritis in my shoulder. All of these things play into it and if you can't, you can lay in a bed for eight hours. If you're not getting into REM sleep. You're not sleeping. It's you're you're just. Taking eight hours off the clock and you're still going to be a disaster. Some people have those autoimmune diseases that affect, you know, so again. Your health care has a lot of different components to it, but each one of them are balanced by the other. And if you don't have somebody taking helping you, if you do have an autoimmune disease or you have these other things and you can't get into REM sleep. Your mental health is going to be completely trashed by it. Yeah. I think what it relates to is all of these things are interconnected. Right, and like none of these are are a pillar unto themselves. And you have to look at this in a holistic fashion. Your psychology is directly related to your physiology and vice versa. If you're not caring for one, you will not get results from the other. I think most business owners strive to be some level of an achiever. I think it's just the way that we're wired. It's why you sort of strike out and start your own business versus working for for others. Is is you have tend to have higher aspirations. And high expectations. And if you're trying to perform at your best and not looking after yourself in the process, you're absolutely tying yourself down with a four-ton boat anchor. Like you will not rise up to your capability. Without managing these things. Both your psychology as well as your physiology. So the key thing to take away from this. Is if you want yourself and your team to perform well, these things are important. And and these ideas need to be things that you work at intentionally. As much as people say, like, yeah, yeah, that's important. Maybe, you know, maybe next month I'll start meditating, maybe in the new year, I'll start exercising. Right. People really struggle with the implementation of this stuff. But I would say the easiest way is to just get started with something. Right. Like, you know, like you noted, just getting out and walking for five minutes in the morning. Starts a bit of a habit for you. Right. Atomic Habits is another great book. To to sort of think about this, tiny habits by BJ Fogg. Is another excellent sort of similar methodology. Around using small triggers and small wins, right, like BJ Fogg has a great little sort of story on this. Where he wanted to be better about flossing. So his his goal was to floss one tooth. Right. And it seems so silly. Like, well, like why why bother with one tooth versus like doing the doing everything? But the idea was is like, I can't lie to myself and don't and say I don't have time to to floss just one. But then once he flossed one, he's like, well, you know, I'm here, I may as well do the rest. And that's the whole idea. Is like, okay, small triggers, like how can I associate these things into my life and and leverage off of existing habits to build new habits. Just look for those opportunities. In in your day. Right, and I I use this type of system in in in some of the training that I do with managers as well around feedback. And telling them, you know. Before you get your first coffee in the morning, you have to give someone feedback. Right. So you have to layer in some triggers in order to develop new habits. So think about that. Think about the things that are deficient in your life, like what are the negative habits. Or, you know, the positive habits, the negative habits that you want to stop or the positive habits that you want to start. And these things, I think, are are really critical. And we'll go a long way. Both for yourself, as well as modeling the behaviors for other people. And again, you know, like you said. You don't want to be preachy or suggest that you're you're know it all in these things. But just simply suggesting to people, you know, these are the things that I'm doing because I think it's important. And I recognize the the impact that it has on on me and my life. Then people will naturally start to follow those things and and you can model the behaviors that you hope to see. Right. Yeah. I mean, we all have habits. Like you said, some are good, some are bad. And, you know, especially if you're in leadership, you know, people people watch what you do, they they they listen to what you say, but they watch what you do a lot more than the words. And if the actions don't line up with the words, then people start tuning you out. So you have to be intentional. You have to, you know, it's constant, it's it's funny every time I talk to my coach. Even when there's improvements and stuff, the the end result always winds up being we have to do more work on me. I'm just like, when is this ever going to end? Like, when is it not? It's not. It's continuous improvement loop. So those those tiny little habits, we have a poster on the wall here about 1% change. If you do the 1% change over the course of a year, you're moving mountains. But you're just doing it a a handful of dirt at a time. And it's it's literally just getting into that mindset. Of you didn't get here in one day, you're not getting out of this in one day. So just make peace with that. You know, when my weight ballooned up to the heaviest I've ever been, I said, okay, well, you know. I didn't eat just one scoop of ice cream and got me here. It was quite a few gallons that that got me to this point. So that was what I loved about the new map. Over these other apps is that it it there's a psychology element to it and it literally tells you, you know, you're you're going to walk 500 steps today. And it's like, you know, as somebody who's an overachiever. It's like, well, I'm going to walk a thousand. It's like, fine, walk a thousand. But you're going to walk 500. And then, you know, five days later, it's like, you're going to walk 2,250 steps today. And it's like, that's a lot more than the thousand you thought you were going to walk, but at some point the 10,000 just becomes, you know, the the bare minimum that I have to do in a day. To to call it a win, otherwise I'm sliding back and I'm not letting those habits. So I was getting up. You know, in Chicago, it gets it gets kind of crazy here, you know, after September, it's like all bets are off. You could be it could be 90 degrees or it could be minus 30 with eight feet of snow on the ground. And we had this this just massive snowstorm come in and I'm out at 5:00 in the morning in the dark. In a snowsuit walking because that's just the habit I developed. And people are like, are you you're just insane? And I'm like, well, the jury's out on that. I mean, that that still could be true. But I made a commitment to making some positive changes and it's just it's just became who I was. And it was important to me, even if I got only 5,000 steps in in the morning, that I showed up. And I already had half of my goal accomplished for the day. Now I just had to figure out where I was going to fit the other 5,000. It's it's much easier to try to fit that in. Then, you know, getting home at 6:00 at night and it's like, oh crap, now I got to go spend two hours walking. Right. Yeah. Who you are is what you do. Is a is a expression that I like. I think it aligns really well with this. Right. That, you know, being honest with yourself about yourself. And looking for for intentional ways to better manage that, especially in leadership. It's going to give you better results. And and model the behaviors that you need to see from your team to make them as as effective. So we've run long. I hope everyone kind of stuck around for this one. Yeah. It was potentially a two-parter. I think I'll probably just leave it in as one. You know, I personally listen to three or four hour podcasts at a time. So, you know, one hour, I don't think is is a ton to consume for for anybody. But I think this has been really helpful, Eric, and I as I said, I really appreciate your willingness to be open and honest about this. I think it's a really important contribution that yourself and others have made in in our channel. Especially at such a an important time around this, the, you know, the the implications of security risks and the pressures of the pandemic. And the needs of our business rising. There needs to be more open discussion about these types of topics. So really appreciate you coming on. And and sharing your journey. And hopefully some of the tips and tricks that we can relate to people. Are are useful. I would just sort of caveat that with what we said. Is start small, right, don't don't say, okay, starting tomorrow. I'm going to be a whole new person. Like you're you're going to end up with failure in that. But just simply stating a couple of things that you can action on a daily basis. In order to contribute towards these things. Is going to be really, really productive. So, uh, really appreciate you coming on. And and sharing your journey. And hopefully some of the tips and tricks that we can relate to people. Are are useful. I would just sort of caveat that with what we said. Is start small, right, don't don't say, okay, starting tomorrow. I'm going to be a whole new person. Like you're you're going to end up with failure in that. But just simply stating a couple of things that you can action on a daily basis. In order to contribute towards these things. Is going to be really, really productive. So, uh, really appreciate your your time, Eric. Any sort of parting words of wisdom. Around mental health and sort of the the burnout and the other issues that we've talked about here. Yeah, I I think just just removing the stigma from it. I'm I'm still here. And able to have this conversation because someone cared enough to, you know. Continue to push me in that direction. And the more of us that speak up and and say, you know, like I I know everybody who's listening to this is suffering from some type of mental health thing. Whether it's just the burnout and the and the stress. The more of us that speak up and make this just, you know, we all we all have these challenges. The easier it will be for people to find help. And, you know, even if this thing just saves one person, it was totally worth the the investment. To to to go go through talking about this journey. So don't be afraid to be the one that puts yourself out there. And and, you know, exposes what you've gone through. You just never know who might be listening and and this might be the thing that pushes him in that direction. To go to go get the help. So don't be afraid to speak up on it. Awesome. Appreciate it, Eric. All the best. My pleasure. Thanks, Todd.