ERP063 - 2021 Network Field Report

I would say for the for the corporate network, we've probably seen a lot less change over the past few months than we typically would. Um but one of the challenges for the typical uh IT admin is going to be that now they're no longer supporting one corporate network with users connecting to it. They're supporting, you know, tens or hundreds of end user networks that are connecting back in. So I'm not sure that it's necessarily made the IT admin's job any easier, right? It was now they're dealing with a lot more variables and things outside of their control. Welcome to Evolve Radio, where we explore the evolution of business and technology. I'm your host Todd Kane. Today on the podcast, I'm joined by Steve Petraczek, technology advocate with Avic Networks. Steve is here to chat about the findings of the Avic Network Field Report. Avic surveyed hundreds of IT pros to get their perspective, their knowledge, and their practices around network management. The report is an interesting mix of insights. I've included a link to the full report in the show notes, so be sure to check that out. For now, enjoy my conversation with Steve as we discuss some of the insights from the report as well as some general discussion about network management. I've included a link to the full report in the show notes, so be sure to check that out. For now, enjoy my conversation with Steve as we discuss some of the insights from the report as well as some general discussion about network management. If you haven't already, please subscribe to the podcast so you get every new episode. Also, if you wouldn't mind, please leave a rating and review in your podcast app. This helps others find the show so we can reach more of the community. Now, on with the show. And joining me today is Steve Petraczek, technology advocate with Avic. Welcome, Steve. Thanks so much for having me, Todd. Great to be here. Awesome to have you. Uh obviously, you Avic has a pretty good reputation, pretty good name in the MSP channel, in the IT channel more broadly. Uh and some people may or may not know that you guys do some reporting and some analysis and data collection from people that you work with and and the the field in general. Uh and you guys call this the network field report. Uh so you're here to chat about about some of the the findings and some of the discoveries and little little details that you guys have found in this data that you've collected, right? and some of the discoveries and little little details that you guys have found in this data that you've collected, right? right? Yeah, absolutely. So uh there's a couple of reports that we do sort of on a uh fairly regular basis. And this network field report really focuses on the uh IT administrator and um what they're feeling and seeing, what they're doing in their day-to-day life. So it's really focused on um that that end user, that that IT admin. Okay, great. And for people that may be interested in the report, uh what are maybe some of the key takeaways that you saw in this report? So there's uh a lot of numbers, a lot of data that uh sort of come up out of this. But there's a couple of things that um I think really surprised me as we got got started. Um one of the the big things we look at is uh confidence in the network and knowledge about the network. Obviously, Avic being a networking company, we're really focused around sort of that that networking angle. And and probably the biggest surprise is that um overall, people are pretty confident in their their network's ability to deliver for the business. Um so over three quarters of respondents basically said, yeah, I'm confident in my network. Um but when we ask the question of, you know, how complete is your knowledge about the network, really only about half of them said that they had complete knowledge of the network. More than half said that they had incomplete knowledge. Meaning that there's uh a good portion of people who are very confident in their network, but have incomplete knowledge about how it's connected, configured, performing. Um which is a bit of a risk, uh and so that was probably the one of the the most interesting findings. Did you did you get a chance to check in with people afterwards and maybe discover sort of where this sort of uh mental dissociation comes from? On, yes, I'm good to go. Anyone asks any questions, you're like, hmm, not sure. So I I think some of the data a little bit further down in the report, we get into a little more specifics, shine some light possibly on some of those areas. Um but no, I didn't follow up directly with them to see what was it uh that that sort of led them to answer that. Hmm. Do you think that that's So I from my experience, I would think that maybe it's kind of one or two things. Uh I think a lot of people tend to view networks too simplistically. And and I think this is actually maybe a bit where where Avic can shine a bit. And in uh if you just have kind of a flat network, there's a single switch and a firewall, then sure, there's probably not a ton that you necessarily need to know. Even though there's probably a lot of interesting tidbits in the switch. But the more complicated the network gets, I often don't find that people scale the relevant understanding of that complexity and sort of the mishaps and misconfigurations that can happen in a more complex network. Would you suspect it's kind of a ignorance is bliss type situation? I would definitely say that yeah, the ignorance is bliss has definitely a big portion of it. I I would say a lot of it as well, um, you know, don't want to jump to the the COVID stuff too quickly, but there's also like a this whole function of if it's um, if it's been working for a number of months and I'm, you know, automatically more confident about it. And as we've seen a lot of transitions this year, our use of the network has changed. Uh and so, you know, uh how it's changed and how that has affected our our confidence. I think we might be starting to make some connections there, but because we're not using the networks the same way, they may be up more, be available more. We know it hasn't many networking issues. Because the way that we're connecting to them has changed. Uh definitely think that that has led to a bit of the increase in confidence. Hmm, interesting. Okay. Um so you mentioned uh COVID and you know, the you're right, the pandemic has drastically changed how especially corporate environments are used. A lot more external connections versus internal connections and it was probably the sort of the flip side of that before. Did you get any other sort of insights around uh how managing a network is changing through the pandemic? So one of the uh big differences between the um the last time we did this uh this report and now, uh was in the percentage of time that IT admins are spending implementing and researching new systems as opposed to maintaining existing ones. And I I think that that in itself is uh probably a result of the digital transformation that we've been forced into this year, right? So previously it was somewhere in the 35 to 40% of the time was spent doing this, researching and implementing new systems, and now it's up to nearly 60%. So we've all been sort of forced to shift what we're doing day-to-day away from um, you know, the maintaining of the existing systems to now enabling the business in sort of this new COVID world. And I think that's uh we've seen that shift as well as uh as we started to um, you know, as we've transitioned this work from home, right? It's new systems to support that that infrastructure. It's new systems to support that that infrastructure. Hmm. Okay. Uh and any sort of general other blind spots maybe that that were the data give you guys some insight on or feedback from from the people uh conducting the report? Yeah, so the the other I would say uh big things that sort of shine out uh the results that we sort of see. One is that um only about a third of organizations are backing up their network device configs on sort of a daily or weekly basis. Um but the changes are occurring on that sort of frequency. So we're getting, you know, more regular updates to network devices, you know, tweaks to firewall policies, maybe firmware updates, all those kind of things are happening on a more regular basis compared to previous years. But the um the rate of backing up those network configurations isn't sort of keeping pace. So there might be a little bit of a a disconnect between how often we should be backing up network devices as well along with how often they're changing. Um and what is that acceptable window, right? How is it okay that we, you know, change it maybe daily or weekly, but only back it up once a month? Um so that might be one uh I would say blind spot that's sort of been uncovered. Um. Another one is uh that about half of the respondents to the survey indicated they spent uh a lot of time on projects that they hate or tolerate. So the hate is a pretty strong word for for a project. Um tolerate a little bit less so. Uh but it it was disappointing to see that the percentage of time that that IT pros are spending doing things that they don't actually enjoy doing, right? I mean, most of us got into the technology field because we we like technology. And if we're spending, you know, half of our time doing things that we don't uh enjoy doing, that's, you know, going to over time lead to I guess a little bit more job dissatisfaction. So. I would say those the one and two almost go together, right? Like documentation and uh sort of the preparation of the environment is is usually not an area that people get up in the morning and go, woohoo. It's an awesome day, I'm going to start documenting everything. Despite the fact that everyone recognizes the necessity of it. I I I think that that probably sort of uh is a correlation to those events not necessarily happening unless there's uh direction. Or some type of uh systemized approach to that. Um I I know like uh not to necessarily get get into the product details per se, but uh this is this is an area where there are tools like Avic and others that can automate this function for you, right? It I I I suppose you guys would be fans of automating the the erroneous work and and the detailed work. Uh so that someone else doesn't have to be relied on to do the boring work, right? Exactly, right? So the idea is, you know, we uh we want to take activities that that can be automated and and do that. Uh but I would say first before you get to that point, um understand sort of what the the policy is around. These kind of things, so something like network documentation, be it a configuration backup or um network topology maps. Like what what is our policy on how often those should be updated? Do they need to be up to date to the minute, you know, for some businesses, maybe yes. There's a a regulatory compliance. They might have to be for many others, it's, you know, sort of a a best practice to have it updated on a, you know, weekly, monthly, quarterly basis. So having a policy around that is is the sort of the first component, right? How often do we need this updated? Um and then I would start to look at uh well, how are we going to make sure that that. Policy is met. Is it a manual process? And again, for some businesses, that's going to be okay. We have the people capacity or um, you know, something that I maybe there is someone out there that enjoys doing that, so it's something I really enjoy doing, so I, you know, I I'll go ahead and do that manually. Um but if we don't have um if we don't have capacity and we have a requirement to do it on a, you know, have it fairly updated and do it on a regular basis. Then we should definitely look at automating those things that are sort of the the repetitive tasks. If it if it can be. Um I would first say, you know, take a look and understand what tools you already have in your tool set. Um before you start to look for other ones, right? Uh so, you know, don't want to dive too down into this technology. But if I have something that is um already backing up my network configs on a monthly basis, can I tune that to, you know, up to a weekly or daily or whatever it needs to be? Um I don't necessarily have to, you know, go look for a new solution right away. Yeah, the other one you mentioned as well. It's worth highlighting. Is uh some in some places this is actually a requirement. Right? So if you're doing sock certification or you're under hippo, any of those other type of regulatory requirements. Uh there needs to be some type of change log and hopefully a backup of of those changes that are happening to pretty much anything in the environment. Especially something like a firewall and certainly probably a switch as well. So that's an important point to keep in mind as well. Yep, exactly. And so if it's um regulated, again, you know, you need to do it. If it's not, there's probably a best practice dictating that you should do it. It becomes a little more optional at that point. But I would say we've all been in one of those spots where um we wish that we had the backup or we wish that we had the documentation. Um I go through that on a daily basis uh for other, you know, internal processes and stuff. I wish someone had documented this for me, um so sometimes it's better to just get in front of that and, you know, invest the time up front. Yeah, definitely. So sorry, I derailed you on some of the uh the the blind spots. You got a couple of others as well. Um there's definitely a few other things in there. I would say, um if we jump back to to some of the data. There's a lot of things that um we've actually seen some improvements in over the past couple years, some things that we've seen uh a little bit a bit of decrease. Um one thing that I I did want to um bring up at at some point was sort of the change in um. Or sort of some of the delighters in in this report if you will. So rather than looking at all the negatives because we've sort of talked about some of the negatives so far. Let's if we sort of shift focus and look at one of the positives and that is in the um typical IT work week. And the productivity of most uh um IT admins over this period of time. So just to sort of uh start that conversation, what we've basically seen from our side is that. Uh there is a been a decrease in the number of IT admins working over 50 hours a week. Which uh if you're listening to this and that's a surprise for you and you're going, I'm still working more than 50. Uh I'm sorry, but you know, so we've definitely seen a lot of people start to um decrease the number of hours. They're reporting working a week, working in a week, which is definitely a benefit. Yeah, that's a nice. That's a nice. It's here as well because yeah, it it's certainly an industry where 60 hours can become the norm. Uh and in in my roles in in managing IT organizations, I used to get after people when it was running over 50. You know, like 43, 45, okay, you know, like that's fine. Like a little extra effort. That's that's okay. But I I remember uh one uh one place that I was I was operating. And uh they uh uh the uh the alarm in the building would automate it automatically arm itself at a certain period at night. And pretty routinely, anytime the alarm was got tripped about a minute or two minutes after that period. I knew exactly who was in the office. I used to call this guy and be like, dude, you don't have to work 60 hours a week. Like this is not a requirement. I'm concerned for your your your your kind of your mental health and I don't want you to burn out. He's like, no, no, it's fine. I enjoy it. It's like, okay, but you don't have to do this. So I I'm good I'm pleased to see that people are sort of working on striking a bit of a balance in their life there. Yep. Yeah. Obviously our our nature was to dig a little bit deeper to try to understand why that occurred, right? Like why why are we starting to see that decrease? And uh I don't want to say there's a 100% link. But what we're sort of looking at is that there's been um an increase in the uh percentage of time that IT pros are devoting to more proactive tasks rather than reactive tasks. And I think that has a a large portion to do like that that's a big contributor to to this change. Um as we are getting more proactive, there are less fires that we have to fight. And it's often the firefighting that takes us into the, you know, hours of the evening, morning, next day. Um trying to resolve those user user issues. So having some um some ability to be a little bit more proactive, I think it's helping us reduce those work weeks overall. You've kind of spoke about the the having policies in place. And I think that's a a really good suggestion because sort of the best way to organize yourself and make sure that these things are being done in some routine fashion. Is to set an expectation of of really uh what people could and should be doing within the environment around documentation, around proactive management, those types of things. Uh are there any other sort of major points either from the report or just generally in your experience that you would suggest are things that people should do as best practices as it relates to network management? Yeah. Absolutely. So I I would say that um this becomes a little bit of a uh a collaborative function of both the IT admin, the security team, if your business is mature enough to have like a business continuity team. You know, you guys are all going to sort of have inputs onto what types of things should be done uh to make sure that the network is always up and available and, you know, redundant and secure. So, um I would say collect some input from those other teams as well who will start to have some best practices. Um, you know, yeah, we talked about policies for things like configuration backups and uh, you know, network topology mapping. But you'll probably also have policies around uh how often firmware should be updated. You know, you might have like a an N minus one for, you know, you must be up to date to the N minus one revision. Um. And so you'll want to take a look at uh some of those policies as well. Um yeah, I would say that's probably the big ones. Yeah. That's one actually that I think doesn't really kind of get enough attention or uh uh doesn't get as much focus. I I find a lot of organizations tend to do uh firmware updates um on an infrequent basis. They kind of view it as if it's not broken, then maybe the firmware isn't the issue. And I'm feel like I'm more likely to introduce a problem um by or brick something. Uh you know, I don't think that that's an issue anymore. But kind of as the the older guard in the IT industry can remember BIOS updates and sweaty palms trying to update things and fearing that it may not come back up. And I don't think that that those are concerns that people should have anymore. Uh but you know, that uh it's usually what you suggest and from a troubleshooting perspective, if you call a vendor for support, the first thing they're going to ask you is, are you on the current version? So that N minus one certainly makes that that that easier, uh and I think that's a a good suggestion for sure. You sort of reminded me of of um you know, there's and there's still some people have this mentality that. Uh proud of the uptime on a switch or proud of the uptime on a firewall and uh yes, uh from an uptime and availability. That's a great metric to look at, but it also, you know, many security teams will look at that and say. Well, you mean that device hasn't been updated in, you know, two years, three years. Whoa, right? And so that that uh becomes a little bit of a concern at that point. Yeah, that's a really good perspective, like that's that's often kind of those bell weathers that you can use. Around infrastructure health, like, okay, we've got a server that's been up for a year and a half. Like you said, sounds good, but actually not good, right? Same thing applies for the network infrastructure. Yeah, that's a really good point. Planned downtime is okay, it's when it becomes unplanned that becomes in that reactive firefighting mode. Where that's uh yeah, that's more of a challenge. Yeah, yeah, it's a it's a specific call out that's a that's a a good one for sure. Uh so how how often do you guys do this report? It's not annually, right? That's right. So the last time we did this report was actually back in 2015. So there's been a number of years since that was uh last done. Now, moving, you know, out into the next couple of years, I'm I'm not sure whether the plan is to do another one this year and the year after. But I think it'd be interesting to start to see some of these trends. Um one interesting question that sort of, you know, came up out of all this is, you know, we've seen a lot of improvements, but can all these metrics continue to improve, right? Like are we going to see the work week continue to go down or if we start to stagnate in some of these? And uh I I think the jury's still out a little bit on that. Um I think, you know, there's still more gains to see in our confidence in the network. I think there's still more gains um to see in our knowledge of the network, right? We're always going to improve those things. Um but there's going to be a diminishing return at some point, right? Like we're never going to be, you know, 100% proactive. There's only so many guard rails that you can put in front of your users, they're still going to find a way to do something wrong and bring something down or they're still going to be, you know, an event that's outside of your control. Um so I think, you know, we'll still continue to see gains in a lot of these areas. Um and, you know, I hope that we at least uh, you know, don't go backwards. I think if we if we stop trying to improve, like stop trying to be more proactive, um, you know, don't invest the time in additional visibility, additional knowledge of the network, additional documentation now. That we'll actually see some of these metrics start to go back to previous levels where we'll start to see us become more reactive. You know, we've gotten to a good point now. How do we maintain? It's again, by continuing to march forward, right? Keep going instead of, you know, stopping and and uh enjoying the spot that we're in. Yeah. The. Maybe uh oh, this probably isn't born out in the data, but uh I'm curious to kind of your perspective on this. As we we touched on uh sort of the difference in the network that, you know, we've now pushed people to to the periphery of the network working from home. Uh is some of this sort of based on the fact that the core infrastructure within the office is sort of less disrupted by the user traffic, the user utilization, any changes that are happening. And the sort of the uh ingress points for the network are more standardized through VPN or SAS apps or uh terminal services, for example. Do do you have a a sense that it feels easier because the those those uh access points are more standardized and less disruption on the core network? I I would say for the for the corporate network, we've probably seen a lot less change over the past few months than we typically would. Um but one of the challenges for the typical uh IT admin is going to be that now they're no longer supporting one corporate network with users connecting to it, they're supporting, you know, tens or hundreds of end user networks that are connecting back in. So I'm not sure that it's necessarily made the IT admin's job any easier, right? It was now they're dealing with a lot more variables and things outside of their control. Um. But I would definitely say that you know, there's been a lot less change to corporate networks over the past year than um than we would have seen in the past. Again, you're right, it's not really there in the data, but um, you know, that's what I would suspect. I also think you have a little bit of um a different experience for different organizations. Someone an organization who had embraced uh SAS applications and cloud services, you know, prior to to March 2020. Is going to be in much different position now than an organization who hadn't embraced cloud services. Right? There they might be organizations that have very little um reliance on the office network these days because they've, you know, gone fully remote. Um you also have organizations that are still in the office, right? For for certain essential services that still need to show up. They still have to have this network up and operational. Um so we no longer have a unified experience, there's many different stories and many different tales to tell here. Depending on um whether, you know, how essential your business is, whether you're in the office or not, and then how much you had embraced cloud services prior to um to COVID hitting here. Okay. And also want to extrapolate a bit on this uh, you know, on this the the Evolved Radio podcast. We talk about the intersection and the future of business and technology. And I'm curious, how do you feel kind of from your perspective, your technology advocate for a very large network management uh software company? And what do you feel is sort of the future of the IT infrastructure network, especially with the adoption of cloud? Not that the corporate network will become sort of less important. But what do you see are things that potentially change or need to be adapted for as as we grow into a more sort of web-based future? As we uh continue this transition, um having an understanding and being able to uh monitor, troubleshoot, um identify problems with the end user experience becomes uh so much more common, right? It's no longer about making sure that um my servers or my services are up and available, it's about what is the user experience uh interacting with those services? So whether those services are in the cloud, um in your data center, um on premise at an office. It's all about uh how is the user interacting with that service and what what is their experience like? Are they, you know, experiencing latency, are they experiencing access issues? Um and how to enable us to get in front of those uh to identify it before the user reports it. You know, self-remediate maybe one day, right? Um but be able to um identify. Again, more user experience issues rather than issues with, you know, the hardware on, you know, wherever that hardware may be. Yeah, I think that's a great answer. I I like that. I think that's uh it's right on. So, uh any anything that I haven't asked you, any uh uh things that that we should touch on? Either from the report or from your your your experience? Yeah. I mean, one thing that um we've used the word blind spot a couple of times as we're talking here. And I'm not sure that we ever really defined what that is and so it might be worth uh just chatting for a second on why why we use the term blind spot and why we went with that in this uh report. Um. And really, you know, for me that was um identifying areas of risk, right? Gaps between best practices and reality or gaps between, you know, what um you expect to see and what's actually happening. Um very similar to that that blind spot in a car, right? Um and so as much as you can eliminate and, you know, put in quick checks, you know, quick blind spot checks to make sure that you're um identifying where those risks are. Uh it's all about uh sort of just taking a step back and looking around you, which I don't know that we always as IT admins have time to do, right? We're always um in the weeds, fighting fires, you know, or pedals of the metal to try to get new projects implemented. Um we need but we need to make sure that we're always sort of looking over our shoulder and checking those blind spots for for those best practices. So. always be go, go, go. Yeah, I think that's a really important point uh especially with how quickly the the industry changes. And you should definitely be kind of, you know, obviously listening to podcasts and going to industry events and and trying to collect as much knowledge as you can. Because it's it's a really important point, the the unknown unknowns as the as the expression goes, right? Uh you can't correct or defend against something that you've never really considered. So that that uh expansion of your knowledge and understanding of what are the areas that could be a risk is really, really important. Yeah, good point. Yep. Um one other area that we started to explore through the report as well was um. You know, and probably relevant to to a lot of your listeners as well is sort of the outsourcing uh of of IT services. And how that's changed a little bit and we didn't have as much data on that uh from back in 2015 in the report. But some interesting numbers sort of came up on uh, you know, what types of tasks are outsourced um and how much outsourcing has been done within the community. So maybe we can dive into that a little bit. Yeah, absolutely. It's it's a big I'm a big proponent of it. I think it's a it's a useful expansion. Um in an elastic fashion for especially a lot of outsourced IT providers, so I'd be curious kind of your thoughts on on how that affects the the networks. Yeah, I I mean, so so a couple of data points that we we uh broke the data down by organizational size as well. Um and so one of the things we looked at are organizations that were sort of in the 200 to 1000 user range and then 1000 users and up. Uh and it was like a a tale of two cities at that point where we had um companies under 1000 users were 90% likely to outsource some IT management function. Right, whether it was everything or a portion of it. Whereas organizations that were sort of over that 1000 users, um were only 17% likely to ex uh to outsource any services. So that's a big difference, right? I'm either almost for certain going to outsource or almost certainly not going to outsource. Depending on where we are at um in the size of the organization. Uh and then when we started to break down uh what types of services were outsourced, uh there was about three quarters of the companies that were out actually outsourcing already some network related tasks. Whether it be uh making changes to the network uh or doing things like monitoring and and configuration management, those type of things. So a pretty big portion of uh of the outsourcing that's done is network management type tasks. Yeah, and that that demark point of a thousand is interesting. Because I think a lot of certainly in the MSP channel, people tend to think of 250 as sort of a high barrier. And then 500 as just like, yeah, it starts to get a little weird at that point and there's there tends to be a lot more internal IT. But you're right, like there's always some portion of that services that is potentially outsourceable. So, you know, companies up to a thousand staff, that's a very, very wide market of opportunity for the channel. Sure, I I would say it would take a little bit different approach than your um your standard, you know, couple hundred person company, right? If you're looking at outsourcing just a portion of their IT support services, um, you know, it probably won't be everything from day one. Maybe you can sort of work that up over time. But understanding what um what are the services the outsourcer outsourcer provides best. And if I'm an in-house IT admin looking at this data, I'm thinking, what are the things that I don't like spending my time doing? What are the things that I, you know, could outsource? Um and it's often something that I think about in in my world as well, what you know, what are the daily tasks I don't like doing? And how can I outsource that to someone to make my life easier? Um so it's, you know, it can be beneficial to both the the outsourcer and the internal admin to identify. What are the things that I'm good at, what are the things and then what are the things that I I don't really want to be doing? Um there's probably someone that can take on some of those uh those functions for you. Yeah, I strongly agree. That that was sort of how I positioned this from a sales perspective. When working, you know, in an uh an IT uh outsourcer as well as uh coaching some. That um I I tend to say that the internal IT organization shouldn't be threatened by you if you position this correctly. In that they probably don't like doing the desktop support work. Uh so they if they want to outsource that to you to allow them to spend more time on projects, then great, or the inverse that they they're good with the client end of things. They're going to do the desktop, but they don't necessarily have the tier three, tier four architectural skills. That you potentially bring. So you can do the projects while they focus on the support. So it's largely just a division of duties and everyone ends up happy because I always say like the the internal IT can usually only do one of them well. Right? They're too busy with projects to great give great customer service and great support to the users. Or they're too busy with customer service and support to do the proactive and the project activities that they know are necessary. So I agree, there's there's a strong case for both parties working within that hybrid IT environment, right? Right, absolutely. We saw a little bit of that in the data as well. Uh there was about 41% of organizations that actually reported spending no time at all in network planning. So if you're, you know, an internal IT admin that's finding yourself in that situation, right, either identify, hey, that's something I want to be doing, recognize I need to do it and outsource other functions. Or if, you know, it's something that isn't necessarily your cup of tea, I'm sure there's a an outsourcer there that would love to sort of help you with that network planning and helping you with that medium to long-term road map. That's awesome. All right. Uh Steve, well, we'll look to wrap up here. Um obviously we've talked a lot about this report and this is something that people will be able to get access to. We'll include a a link in the show notes, uh um is there anything else you want to call out around the report and people kind of getting access to that? Um nope, so the the report is available, I think the like I said, link will be in the show notes. Uh full details, lots of numbers in the report, you can slice and dice it a number of different ways. Um if you have any questions on it, uh obviously engage with us through the social channels, we'd love to to have a chat with you further on it. Okay. And where can people find more info about yourself and or Avic if they'd like? Sure. So uh find out about myself, you can find me on LinkedIn, Steve Petraczek. Uh or if you uh go to our blog, I also have a few entries there. And then Avic.com, A V I K.com. Awesome. I appreciate your time, Steve, and look forward to peeling through the report and see what we see. Thanks so much for having me.