ERP007 - Microsoft Application Delivery w/ Kevin Kaminski

Welcome to Evolve Radio where we explore the evolution of business and technology. Today, I'm speaking with Kevin Kaminsky with a consulting organization called the Big Hat Group. Kevin is a Microsoft MVP specializing in AppV and application delivery technologies. Today we chat about the MVP program, AppV itself and its evolution from Softgrid, we also touch on application delivery options for IT shops and MSPs. Then we look to the future of application delivery, how will Azure play a role and the industry adoption of cloud infrastructure overall. This episode is going to get quite technical, so if you're not in the IT world, it may not be your cup of tea. But if you are, I'm sure you're going to love it. Grab your propeller hat, we're going to get technical. Today we have Kevin Kaminsky with us. Thanks for joining us, Kevin. Yeah, thanks. Kevin is a Microsoft most valuable professional. And which is a an award designation for industry heavy hitters and your specialty is in application packaging, application delivery. And do you want to tell us a bit about your specialty and the MVP program? Yeah, so this year's my eighth year or eighth successful nomination into the program. Um, as that suggests, it's uh a program where uh you're essentially recognized uh for your contributions and your ability in your field and uh you're given an award on a yearly basis. Uh, so you're always up for renewal, it's never a given. Uh, I originally started in um the application virtualization specialty uh in the MVP program, so for Microsoft AppV. Uh, that is since changed somewhat with a reorg of specialties in Microsoft. So I'm technically under the Windows and devices for IT specialization, but uh we still uh our AppV group still exists and the product group interactions we have still exist. You know, as part of being an MVP, uh we do a lot of uh public speaking, posting online through blogs or Twitter. We sometimes write white papers, uh and do some of the beta feedback for Microsoft to uh give them an idea of what we think of uh their upcoming products and releases of products before they hit the mainstream. So, um, it's an interesting program, um, we get a lot of insight. Uh, we get to go to Redmond once a year for a MVP conference and that's when we get to actually see our product groups face-to-face. Which uh is a treat because otherwise we usually don't get any opportunity for that kind of interaction. And uh we also get to sit down with a lot of different MVPs and discuss all sorts of geeky topics amongst each other. And uh it's great for cross-pollination and, you know, just the the development of your own knowledge and uh, you know, bring uh getting exposed to some ideas and concepts you might not have been normally exposed to in your local market. How big is the group that you're in, like as far as peers within sort of your specialty, is it is it kind of you, you're the MVP or is there kind of a a group of six or eight people uh kind of across the world that have the same type of uh specialty as you? The AppV program, I'd say is around 15 to 20 people right now. Uh, I I can't quite remember the exact number just yet, you know, and and that's to do with the fluidity of the program. You know, there's four different times a year, so once every quarter, uh there's different people that get nominated and as a result, some people uh leave the program as well for uh lack of involvement, you know, and those sorts of reasons. So it's it's a pretty fluid uh group. Our larger group with the Windows and devices for IT, uh, I'm saying it's probably somewhere between the uh, I don't know, 60 and 80 person range at least, it's a much larger group. So you're essentially one of the top 20 people for application delivery around AppV and according to to Microsoft then. That's a pretty exclusive group, that's a great honor. Yeah, it is, you know, it's it's it's great to have a, you know, the history with the product, but be also to get some recognition for it. And yeah, for me it wasn't an easy slam dunk to get into the program, um, you know, when I uh was being nominated, I had two unsuccessful nominations before I got in. So it wasn't until the third try I actually got into the program. So, uh, even though I'd started with the technology roughly in 2002, um, and had some uh community involvement before then, you know, it still took a little bit to finally get in there. Yeah, right on. Well, uh great job on on being recognized and especially in maintaining that, as you said, you, you know, you're always on the bubble for renewal and you've maintained that for a few years, so that's that's excellent. So the the AppV is um kind of not necessarily the most recognized product from from Microsoft, but it's certainly something that is obviously close to your heart and and somewhat close to mine as well. You and I met years ago on a project around uh Softricity and the implementation of the Softgrid program, uh which was an amazing piece of software that uh Microsoft eventually bought and uh turned into AppV. Um, you know, you can correct me on this if I'm if I misinterpret it, but uh I feel like the the vision of Softgrid and Softricity, the the delivery of the apps uh essentially as a utility. Um, you know, you package up these applications independent of the platform, essentially a virtualization of the application, the same way that people would imagine virtualizing a server and being able to distribute that without uh the installation of the fat app. And it's amazing that all these years have passed and I I feel like the vision around Softricity is not necessarily been realized to the full extent. And some of that is based on the licensing model, I feel, um, maybe not as much of uh maybe there were technical delivery issues. Uh still an incredibly powerful platform, but uh, you know, what's your sense of how AppV transformed the vision of what Softgrid was originally designed as? Well, Softgrid was generally a good technology for its time. Um, it was the best of breed, it uh it did its job fairly well, you know, and uh it was a little bit more of a utility because uh the way it installed and uninstalled, it was a little bit quicker than AppV5 because it didn't do as much integration with the host operating system. The applications were highly isolated by default. And uh for a lot of use cases, this worked out well, but it it didn't uh always work out the best and that's where things got interesting with the product. And um I would say AppV5 has to be recognized as a complete redesign. Um, they uh wanted to try and get over some of the hurdles they were having with AppV4 and there were some sacrifices made because of what they had to do with the product design. So, uh things like the synthetic file system and the synthetic registry went away and they started using uh redirection to redirect uh these calls to different areas of the file system and registry and provide isolation that way. And um that that that works a little bit better for a lot of of the applications. But um there was other things that were done to the product that uh, you know, you can debate whether or not they were the best choice or not. And that's uh, you know, being able to expose local com objects within uh the virtual environment and exposing them out to physical applications that allowed a little bit more interoperability between physically installed applications and virtual applications. But the tradeoff is is you would slow down the installation of the application. So if I was to uh pick on something like the Office click to run, the Office click to run is uh a very slow installation process because it has to do all these uh traditional installation type actions that uh don't happen as quickly as AppV4 because AppV4 your application installation was dropping down a file and making some very light modifications with the uh or integrations with the Windows shell. So, um, it's it's it was a tradeoff that was made to get a greater uh uh cross section of applications into the platform. And um, I think it plays well with the longer term uh strategy that Microsoft is doing. And uh I think with Windows 10, uh, you know, you see Microsoft refocusing their efforts on application virtualization. Because um, if you look at Windows installer, Windows installer is basically legacy technology now. You know, there's nothing new that's coming down the pipe, it's it's on life support, you know, it'll be there for quite a while and it'll do its job, but it's basically not an area of focus at Microsoft. And when you look at AppV and its cousin right now known as Project Centennial. Um, what we're trying to do is find ways to take these traditional applications and isolate them in a way that still makes them uh useful but less uh likely to damage the operating system. And so AppV still has a very strong role in the enterprise. And it's actually been added to the latest build of Windows 10 uh to provide uh, you know, inbox functionality with the AppV agent being in the enterprise skew of the operating system. Um, it isn't in the consumer edition, but Project Centennial is more for across the board AppV functionality. So you can take uh some of your traditional apps and just try to wholesale convert them uh to Project Centennial and Project Centennial is really a hybrid between Win 32 app architecture and modern universal app architecture. So you can still get uh some of those uh new features that are in the universal application API set and leverage a lot of your legacy Win 32 code. But it's not going to support everything that you could do in the Win 32 world. And the key thing you have to take away from this is AppV tries to accommodate its architecture to be more compatible with more applications. And when you're dealing with Project Centennial, Project Centennial's more of a set standard that developers are going to have to learn to make their applications work with. And as more and more vendors and developers get on board with Project Centennial, you're going to see more and more applications that can be delivered via the Windows store that aren't complete rewrite. The benefits of this is that you these modern formats are isolated by default and the amount of repackaging and configuration is far more minimal with these applications. So the dark art of repackaging and making uh registry adjustments and running scripts when the app launches and uh uh even when it installs and uninstalls, a lot of this stuff is starting to go away and the world is getting a lot more simplified. So, uh the the future vision looks a lot better and Microsoft's still leveraging, you know, AppV in uh or even Softgrid, the the the theory in a lot of ways. But um it's it it is a bridging technology that's bringing us slowly to the world of universal apps. So to step back a bit, one of the the key advantages for people that haven't had a lot of exposure to AppV, um is around the the isolation of the application, particularly in the space with the registry. This is one of the the big advantages that I see is application installation uh is one of the biggest threats to the stability of of servers and workstations in particular. And most organizations tend to deal with a lot of uh outdated and legacy line of business applications that are either poorly written or written a long time ago and don't necessarily conform to current standards. And when these things go wrong, they can wreak all kinds of havoc in the registry and when the registry go goes bad on a server or workstation, that ends up being a support desk call and and usually a long one. Uh this is these are not the types of issues that, you know, you can just uh close the application and start it again. So the the isolation of that application and the isolation of the registry space is a huge plus and a big savior of of time and effort in supporting workstations and servers because they're simply more stable because the application is kept away from the vital parts of the operating system. Is that right? Yeah, that's really the key piece because uh, you know, Windows installer was supposed to sort of solve some of this, but it didn't solve the underlying fact that developers were using bad application architecture. And um, it it's amazing if you do a Procmon trace on some of these apps, what they actually do when they operate. Like, uh, we had some applications that absolutely insisted on having admin rights when they ran and we found the reason they were doing this is that when you launched the application, the application would perform installer-like actions to make sure the environment was the way it wanted it. So it would actually go and re-register a bunch of its own DLLs just to make sure those DLLs were always registered the way it wanted it. And and it's it's amazing what you see when you actually debug some of these weird situations. And so, uh, application isolation has been very important and that's where universal apps, it's isolated by default and uh, now when you move to AppV, you're you're you're providing that layer of isolation. And that enables all sorts of scenarios, you know, like so when I started with Softgrid, uh, we had a Citrix environment that uh would literally self-destruct. Because one of the applications would trigger Windows installer self-heal and then four or five other applications would trigger Windows installer self-heal and then the server was basically useless because uh all sorts of DLLs and registry settings were out of whack. Um, then you take it to more modern situations where uh we're trying to reclaim software licenses, so we're trying to to make the installation and uninstallation of software a non-event, you know, it's not going to wreck your machine. Because uh I I could give you a very complicated and large piece of software like AutoCAD for three months, but then if you don't use it for another month, I can come back and take it away without worrying about destabilizing your system and having to re-image your computer, which is extremely disruptive for the end user. So, uh, we want to have applications much more like utilities and so, uh, you know, AppV is going to be the first step to get there and then Project C and universal apps are are further evolutions of the same concept. So, obviously, this gets used a lot more in the enterprise space with the the licensing used to be reserved exclusively for um for enterprise licensing. And now it's it they've started to crack that open a little bit and make it a little more accessible, uh, do you see a a sort of a more wider adoption for outside the enterprise, more in the mid business and the small business space with the availability of AppV or is it still a bit too cumbersome to set up the infrastructure to enable this system first? It's not so much setting up the infrastructure in terms of doing the application delivery. That's fairly simple. I think uh the the tough parts are or the tough part is getting the application into a virtual format and uh having the skill set to do so. So, um, I I I've been seeing some larger MSPs uh be successful in that space that they they take on um the skill set to transform these applications for their customers. Um, but when you're looking at uh smaller customers, it's definitely become a challenge for it is a challenge from a uh a skill standpoint. The licensing is interesting because um if you have traditional uh RDS uh cows for terminal services or uh remote desktop services, um, you're you have your AppV license included in that. So in that scenario, it's fairly easy to license. Where it gets interesting is if you don't have software assurance. And software assurance is normally for larger customers, you know, we're talking maybe 800 seats and bigger, uh, they typically buy that kind of licensing and then they can get the licensing for AppV under that. Uh, however, there's this back door that you can get where if you buy an Intune license at about $11 a month per PC, it's Intune with software assurance. Uh, what you end up getting is you get an Intune license, of course, but you also have a system center configuration manager license and you have your uh MDOP uh or software assurance and MDOP licensing. So you can actually leverage AppV uh through that licensing as well. So, uh it's not a an approach I I see very often, but it is a little known way you can still get the licensing to do it. You know, ultimately we would like to see the licensing for AppV to be even more open than it is today. But um, it's always been the this uh piece of MDOP for traditional desktops and uh yeah, depending on your size, that may or may not be an issue. And, you know, the Intune licensing is a way you could work around it. So you mentioned uh some MSPs taking on that that packaging aspect for the application delivery. That's a a particular space that I've been interested in and looked at for, you know, my previous history with MSPs is creating an application catalog that is applicable across client. And where this is really helpful is, you know, you have say 100 clients and 20 of those clients use the exact same application, um, and in a lot of instances, they're even the same version, same patch level. So if you could just broadly apply that application across those infrastructures and be able to manage them uh independently, rather than having to log on to, you know, these all these different servers and and do these patch updates and installations of new versions and things like that, uh being able to package the applications for delivery to multiple organizations is really appealing. Uh one of the limitations that I saw early on in this was was the the licensing itself and also the licensing uh from a from a legal perspective and, you know, how are you packaging it for, you know, multiple people and what are the licensing implications both for the provider as well as uh the end user. Uh so can you maybe give a a bit more detail on how those MSPs are approaching that and how they're kind of getting around some of those roadblocks? Yeah, it it's it's a really murky area because uh some of the application packages are so complicated in how they're implemented, you're almost doing a unique implementation for each client. But um, I have seen for the more straightforward applications where you can even buy the application off the shelf pre-packaged. Uh, there's even packaging factories that'll say, yeah, I got Adobe Reader version X packaged, um, you can buy the the virtual application package from us. Uh, rather than, you know, having to submit it through a manual process. Uh, so, Is that is that something that we'll see more with Centennial, like if everything's moving to uh, you know, a flat application, a universal application? Is it more that, you know, you simply, you know, you don't have to buy the application and install it, you know, if you have rights in the store and it gets a, you know, you add a computer to a domain and you've got seat licenses that match and, you know, you you can then push that down to the additional assets? Is that sort of what the vision might be down the road? Yeah, that's really where Microsoft's going is they want to get stuff into the store and Centennial is uh that bridging technology to help application vendors get uh applications into the store more quickly. So it's a compromise rather than forcing people to write uh universal applications right away. Um, and and the idea of the Windows store is uh one, it's going to be easier to manage and get a better view of your licenses. Uh two, uh the configuration of your apps is going to be a lot more straightforward, um, the vendors are going to expose interfaces to what can be configured with the app and it's going to be uh much less of a black art than it is with traditional packaging. The delivery mechanism is fairly portable, so, you know, if you want to uh do it through configuration manager, configuration manager is going to be able to pull down those store applications locally and deliver them using its infrastructure. Or if you're using something like Intune, it can go and uh tell the client to go grab the following applications from the store and set up the licensing. Uh and then uh uh on top of that, uh, you know, you can just have uh user accounts with entitlements in the store as well and the user can go directly to the store and find the applications themselves that they they want to use out of the curated catalog you're providing them. And the final piece of this too is that the store is going to act as a bit of a quality buffer. So, um, there's been some complaints by some software vendors that they don't necessarily want to use the store, uh, just because, um, they're not happy with the economic relationship in terms of how much they have to share with Microsoft. Um, but there's ways of getting around that with side loading applications. But the thing is is applications you do find in the store are going to be vetted by Microsoft, so it's not like the good old days where you buy or you download a piece of shareware and find out that it's installed a bunch of browser extensions that are spying on what you're doing and selling that information to an advertiser. So, uh, Microsoft's really trying to clean up, um, the the quality of some of the the the apps in general people are getting off the internet. Yeah, that's a a welcome change from my perspective. The the Windows store, you know, traditionally has been uh kind of a wasteland of third-party applications meant to look like something else, you know, the Facebook app from, you know, some guy in his basement in in in Siberia or something. It's the the quality of those applications were often terrible and and not a lot of uh real life applications to be able to pull from there, so I'm excited to see some effort put behind that to make it a more uh usable and more consumer-friendly space as well. Yeah, ultimately it's the future. Uh, it's just it it's had a slow and rough start. You know, I I'm not going to sugarcoat that part, you know, you you you you hit it on the head that, you know, the early versions of the store haven't been all that wonderful. But I've noticed now even with Windows 10 that there's been more applications of worth in the store. And uh, you know, I'm just hoping Centennial really kick starts that transition and brings a whole line of software across. Because, um, depending on how complicated the software is, many vendors might find themselves uh realizing that all they have to do is convert their app, they don't even need to uh modify their uh source code to make it work with Centennial. And uh that can be some uh open up some incredible uh possibilities for them to uh get that catalog uh expanded. Yeah, it's it's an understandable situation for sure. I'm not I'm not overly critical on Microsoft on this, they have a massive development community and changing the culture of that community to filter through the store when you've had, you know, 20 or 30 years of of the previous habits ingrained, that's not a that's not an easy ship to turn. So, I understand that. The other part uh where this this sort of leads from as well is is uh the development of remote app and Azure is obviously a massive, massive uh platform change and a and a delivery push from Microsoft across all areas, both cloud computing and how apps are probably going to be delivered in the future. So I see this as kind of twofold is one, it may come from the store, secondly, you know, those store applications could potentially be delivered through remote app in in uh in a more streamed fashion. You you work on both AppV and uh the remote app portion, you want to maybe touch on what you you see as the experience difference and the the the the use case for each? It it's it's going to be interesting how all this stuff plays out. Because, um, VDI or remote app has been traditionally a way you can get your applications out to users regardless of the platform. And um, that's a great approach, except, um, the applications don't necessarily refactor their user interface to the type of device, uh, to be as effective. So for example, if you take, um, you know, Outlook and uh send it to somebody's phone through a RDP connection, um, it's going to be very tricky to use because the user interface isn't really designed for that device. And then, uh, the second piece is that you have, um, the need to always be connected. And that's uh, a very uh, limiting thing, even with all the connectivity we have today, to always be, always have that continuous connection is is a big deal to make VDI a reality. So, you you have that piece and then you have this whole thing of, okay, well, we can do VDI today, let's do it from the cloud. Um, I think the cloud aspect is interesting. I know Microsoft's making a lot of investment into it and I think the whole idea there is really to take away the burden of having to start a stand up a whole bunch of infrastructure for your VDI environment, to have a VDI environment that can um dynamically scale based on user load and uh be fairly affordable for most organizations. So, uh, even if you're a small company, if you have a handful of users that need that kind of connectivity to your applications and data, um, that's a great way you can do it through the cloud. So a lot of it is really just changing the delivery methodology. And the the technology has changed and and, you know, the back end is different, but it really isn't a whole lot different from the the previous iterations of this and having an RDS server in house and being able to push those those uh those applications out through the firewall to, you know, a secure device and limit your platform surface so that, you know, it is more secure. But it it's really just sort of shifting as you said, the burden of the of the infrastructure from, you know, a server closet to an enterprise data center at an affordable cost then. Yeah, yeah, and and I I think it'll make sense for a lot of smaller companies right now because they don't have VDI and this is a way for them to get into VDI without uh making a a huge capital investment. Um, for enterprises, larger enterprises, it's a bit of a different story right now, um, uh because they have a lot of uh technical debt with their on-prem uh infrastructure. So, uh, their their applications and uh their VDI infrastructure are all set up and running and it's all on prem and it would take, you know, a project of a sizable uh amount of effort to take that and convert that into a cloud implementation. So, I'm not saying it's it's not doable, it's just that it's much uh it's it's a much bigger thing to to turn on than say for a smaller company. Yeah, this is uh something that I've seen uh recently is more of these generational shifts, so organizations are recognizing the age of their infrastructure, rather than re-upping and buying a whole bunch of new infrastructure, they just ditch all the physical infrastructure outside of the, you know, the network equipment and some core onsite pieces and everything gets rebooted in the cloud. Either, you know, moving it or building it new and it's it's kind of this generational change of what's available, what is the the comfortable technology that people are able to utilize for their their small business or even enterprise services. Yeah, yeah, and it's it's going to be a slow journey. Um, and it depends on the organization, I've run into some enterprises, uh, where their upper management is very uh energized about moving to the cloud and uh and that means, you know, you're seeing production workloads moving off their off to the cloud fairly quickly. Uh, you see other people that are getting their feet wet, so they might do some offsite data backup and then maybe uh they'll uh do some dev test in the cloud and then move some very low value production workloads. Everybody's all over the map with this because, um, you know, it's uh it's one thing to go through the the the marketing and the the technical side of the cloud, it's another thing to truly, um, have that working understanding of how this is all going to uh work with the organization. And some organizations just aren't ready either because their uh security policies don't know how to deal with it or they just don't have an idea of what they own today in a good enough uh uh detail to even formulate any sort of planning around cloud migrations. Right. So if uh, you know, if people that are listening and they're in sort of the mid the mid business or the small business space, what what is available for them to kind to dip their toes in this and and be able to uh access some of the the the applications and the technology available to them for smoother and cleaner delivery of applications, isolating those apps and and reducing the the workload for them, not initially, there's certainly an investment in the in getting this stuff set up from a technical perspective, but certainly saves you a lot of headaches down the road in support needs. Uh how would people sort of approach this initially? Well, I I see a lot of it coming out of uh remote app as um and it really depends on the organization, but smaller organizations, I see them playing with Azure remote apps so that they can get their productivity suite onto a variety of devices and allow people to work from anywhere. So, uh, you know, just having to get the RDP uh or I should say the remote app client on their device and then they have access to a variety of applications. Um, if you're into a narrower definition of applications, you know, you might just be looking at using Office 365 and skip the VDI side of things for now. Um, you know, Office 365 is a great way to get access to a lot of your uh data and uh applic and your core suite of applications regardless of location. So, um, it really depends on what you need to get your your job done. And uh, you know, I see it as uh things evolve, you know, you can either invest more in VDI, uh, but I but that's one approach or you can invest more in your applications, which is a little bit more tricky. Because, uh, what I mean by investing more in your applications is investing in applications that are able to make you work in a mobile fashion without needing VDI and that may require the applications being built from scratch. So, um, for example, some of the work uh I do, uh is to help customers actually uh set up uh business specific apps that take the place of manual procedures that they're currently doing today. Uh, so, um, they would they would be uh out on a farm counting chickens in a cage and they would write that down on a piece of paper and then they'd go back to their office with all these pieces of paper and then eventually input all that data into Excel and then do a bulk upload. Well, let's build a very simple universal app that can be run on a compact Windows device and and or, you know, the other thing you have to look at is Microsoft acquired Zarin and so, you know, even with Visual Studio now, I can take that same app, I can give it to you in Windows Universal app, I can give it to you as an Android app, I can give it to you as an iOS app. So it doesn't even necessarily have to be a Windows app or a Windows device you're using when you're doing that data collection. But, um, I'm finding many customers are finding ways to save money by replacing paper when their uh uh workers are out in the field. Because, you're doing digital makeovers for for legacy processes. That's great. Yeah, and and it's it's justifying all sorts of uh pushes to Windows 10 or to different device form factors. Because, um, you know, in some cases I was dealing uh with an oil and gas company a few years ago, uh, they went from getting data from the field into their databases being a process of weeks to almost real time because they could get the data the same day. Uh, so these things uh equate into a lot of value because now they they don't get all this lag on their data, the data is, you know, being fed up to Azure and they can do all sorts of analytics on it and start to really be more agile as a business. That's excellent. I love that approach. It's it's something that I'm deeply passionate about is re-envisioning business as usual and looking for opportunities to apply technology, that's that's really the heart of what I see is the evolution uh of the the technology and the business merging together. Uh so that that's fantastic, that's great. So you're working on, you know, the the consultation around business processes and how the application stack is is applied and delivered, you're also doing training uh for uh individuals and and groups, uh you do a lot of speaking engagements. I want to tell us about some of the the stuff that you have coming up and how people would get in touch with you if they would like. Yeah, so uh I've gotten together with another MVP here in Calgary, Emil Cat and uh we're actually collapsing some local user groups for Microsoft in Calgary to the Calgary Microsoft user group. Um, it's infrastructure focused, but it's a wide swath of what Microsoft does, you know, it's everything from cloud to traditional infrastructure, there's a lot of things going on in that space. I I'm also uh speaking at Bryform presenting with Tim Mangan, uh who is also got a long history with Softgrid. He actually used to manage the product development back at Softricity, uh what we're doing is we're just doing uh a 2016 Black belt session on AppV. Going over some of the more modern topics with AppV, so some unique application packaging problems and uh also be talking about using Azure uh to host some of your AppV infrastructure. So, uh, so I'm on Twitter as @K_Kaminsk, uh, I do a lot of just tweeting about Microsoft technology, not a lot of it's personal, so it's a good feed to be on. Uh, you can find me on LinkedIn, I uh share a lot of the same stuff uh on on LinkedIn as well and I'm a fairly open networker, so if you're in the IT industry, chances are I've no problems uh accepting your invitation. So, and I also have a blog uh K Kaminsk at blogspot.ca. Uh, I try to keep that one going, I always find it harder with blogs because I come up with great ideas, I write three quarters of it and then I know before I put it online, I got to make it air tight and that's always the fun part is getting that last 20% done. Yeah, I hear you on that. Okay. That's great. I appreciate your time today, Kevin, and all the best. Okay, well, thanks. I appreciate the call. Okay, well, thanks. I appreciate the call.