ERP054 - ADHD

Things started to get much harder. I had stricter deadlines, I had more work to do, uh exams. Um I started to recognize that when I wanted to sit down and focus and do my work that I was genuinely interested in doing, I just wasn't able to. Welcome to Evolved Radio, where we explore the evolution of business and technology. I'm your host Todd Kane. On the podcast today, I'm joined by Robert Murky to talk about ADHD. ADHD is well recognized in modern culture. However, there are also a lot of misconceptions and stigmas associated with the condition. Today Rob explains his journey in finding he had ADHD and how it affected him. Also, how he manages ADHD and we get a bit into how I feel that ADHD if leverage properly can actually be a superpower. So stick around and enjoy. If you haven't already, please subscribe to the podcast so you get every new episode. Also, if you wouldn't mind, please leave a rating and review in your podcast app. This helps others find the show so we can reach more of the community. Now, on with the show. Today on the podcast, I'm joined by Robert Murky. Welcome, Rob. Hey Todd, thanks for having me. So today we're going to be discussing ADD and ADHD. Which I think is a fairly relevant topic especially in the technology field. I've spoken to a number of people that are either sort of suspicious that they're ADHD based on mannerisms or in some cases that have actually been diagnosed. And uh you have a a very particular perspective on this, uh you're in the process of writing a book on the topic. And really wanted to have you on and kind of explore this a little further to understand sort of your perspective on this and give people some idea of what it looks like. Uh maybe some systems and tools that they could potentially leverage. And one of the things that I really wanted to sort of pull through here is that I I strongly believe that uh if managed well and really leveraged correctly, ADD and especially ADHD can actually be a superpower, especially for entrepreneurs. And I think that that that helps to remove a bit of the the stigma that's often associated with it. So uh I think it'll be a great discussion looking forward to to digging in with you. Yeah, great. I'm excited to talk about it. Um just one note on some terminology, ADD and ADHD are identical. They're the same thing. Um there was some confusion in the science/medical field about it. Um and everyone kind of determined it's the same thing, there's no there's no distinction. Unfortunately, um they're now used interchangeably and they they really mean the same thing. So if anyone was wondering what what the difference is, there is no difference. They're the same. Okay. Cool. So we're learning already. Uh I'm going to stick with ADD just because it's easier to say, I guess. It does. Yeah, perfect. Okay, perfect. So uh to kick off maybe Rob, if you want to give us a just kind of a a brief history and time on you and who you are and and maybe some of your experience uh sort of coming to terms with uh with being ADD. Sure. So my origin story follows as I was always aware that I had some sort of attention issues, um especially later in high school. As a kid, I was not the um prototypical, stereotypical, hyperactive kid that everyone seems to uh to know as the the ADD kid or ADHD kid. I was very quiet, very um internalized, um have a had a vivid imagination, so that's kind of what prevented me from jumping out of my seat or whatever. Um but as soon as I left high school, got into university, as soon as it things started to get much harder. I had stricter deadlines, I had more work to do, uh exams. Um I started to recognize that when I wanted to sit down and focus and do my work. That I was genuinely interested in doing, I just wasn't able to. So, um the journey starts off in a very negative way. Because when you're unable to do the work while your peers and your friends are able to, um you feel bad, right? And if you don't know what what you have, you you just feel like a lot of negative language starts to pop up in your head. I'm lazy, I don't have the work ethic. Um so somehow I uh fooled all the administrators at the University of British Columbia and was able to pass and graduate. Um and as soon as I started working, all of these problems, which I had attributed to me not necessarily loving school and stuff like this, they they stayed. And I loved the work I was doing at my my job. I joined a tech startup working on virtual reality. There's nothing cooler than that. I got to do programming, I got to do design, I got to do uh project project management. I did everything I really wanted to do and yet I still had these days where I could not focus. I could not sit still, I could not do the work I wanted genuinely to do. So I finally said, okay, screw it, I'm going to go to the to a specialist with an ADHD specialist because I think I have ADHD. Um so an ADHD specialist is not really a common uh profession, there's not that many people who are that. There's a few that self-identify as people who sort of specialize in in ADHD. Um and that was a great experience. I I met with this specialist who was extremely kind. Sort of 10 minutes in, he was like, yep, you definitely have ADHD. Yep, like and so we started going down the medication path, which helped a lot. But after that, there was nothing else. There was no strategies or counselors or um coaching that I was uh given access to. It was just like, here's here's the medication you can take. Does it help? Yes. Okay. See you later. Um so and that's uh where this book started to form in my in my mind. Where, you know, medication is great, but there's a whole bunch of lifestyle changes and and strategies you need to build into your your life in order to to like you said, Todd, take advantage of the positives of your ADHD. Like a lot of people say it's a superpower. It is if you use it right. But if you don't use it right and if you are struggling with it, it's it can be very detrimental to your life. So, um that's not only my origin story, but a bit of how I figured out that I want to write this book as well. So what works maybe some of the cues? Like that if if the guy kind of looked at you within 10 minutes, he's like, yeah, absolutely. I'm sure of this without any type of testing. What what did that look like? How did he know? Um so there there was two primary ways. First of all, I was just fidgeting, which is a huge uh I know everyone does fidget. But it's people with ADHD fidget a lot. The second thing was just telling him my experiences um of really wanting to do something, really genuinely caring about some work and just not being able to sit down and do it. That's a very difficult phenomenon to explain unless you've actually experienced it yourself. Some people might have had brain fog sometimes in their life. You know, especially if you're, you know, great examples if you're really hung over, um and you just your brain is all foggy, you can't get to work. That's what it feels like despite doing, you know, everything else properly. Um so as soon as I explained that to him, that was pretty much the number one queue. Um was, okay, you know, you're doing everything else right, you're you're exercising, you're drinking water, you're eating healthy. Um this is probably some sort sort of ADHD and so that's how it started, yeah. Okay. And um a bit like you kind of commented on the fact that you maybe felt uh uh maybe a bit ashamed. Is that too strong a strong a term? Um That's a perfect word. Okay, so some difficulty at least admitting this and and what would it mean like if I had to explain this to someone or or admit the fact or. I know a lot of people probably avoid diagnosis in a lot of different areas, not just this. But maybe especially with anything that has sort of a a mental health uh issue related to it, I think there there's a lot of uh societal connotations and and sort of people view the stigmas that are associated with any type of mental health issue. Uh did you kind of feel the pressure of that and and have you how have you managed it afterwards? Yeah, so that type of social pressure, I actually am very fortunate to have not felt that, um or any shame around that. Like, you know, even talking to you about it, as soon as you sort of saw what I was doing, you said, oh, let's talk about it on the podcast. It's interesting. Um so that's been the reaction that I've gotten from a lot of people. Um but the shame I'm talking about is more internal. Where you don't want to have this condition, right? You feel like this is something that's negative about me, I don't want to learn more about this because then it's going to be revealing the truth. Um that I'm just some ADHD uh person who's going to struggle for the rest of my life. Um as soon as I as soon as I got over that and learned that, you know, I can be successful despite having ADHD. Then I realized, oh, okay, so this is not actually that bad. I mean, it's it's a negative, it's negatively impacting my life. But I can work on this and I can uh thrive um on despite having ADHD. And as soon as that got unlocked in my mind, you know, I had no problem talking to people about it. And everyone's been really receptive. Everyone has been um very supportive, they've been interested, they've been um in fact a lot of people who might not even have ADHD are asking me about um the types of. You know, I don't think I have ADHD, but I do get brain fog sometimes, what do I do? So it it seems to me that a lot of people um find it interesting rather than um a negative thing. Yeah. And and again, kind of in the scope of classification, would you consider it a mental health issue? Or is it maybe just than that? I yeah, that I've been trying to pin that down just so I can be accurate in my book. But it's been it it it's technically it's a mental health uh mental health disorder. It's a neurological disorder. You have um dopamine in your receptors in your brain that either aren't turning on properly, they're not you don't have enough of them, um or there's something else going on with them. So so it is a, you know, a measurable objective um issue in your in your mind, in your neurons. So it's you know, you could probably call it a brain disorder, you could probably call it a neurological disorder. At the end of the day, um I wouldn't call it a mental health issue, I would call the the um symptoms of it mental health issues in their own ways. So if I get hyperfocused, which is one of the uh symptoms of ADHD sometimes, um if I get hyperfocused on something I really want to do, well, that's not a problem at all. I actually feel good while doing that, but if I'm on the other side of that coin and I'm unable to focus at all on something I want to do. Well, you know, that's that's now a problem and now that is sort of a mental health problem. Now, the secondary side effect of that is, well, now I feel awful and I I feel shameful about myself because I can't do this simple um Excel spreadsheet or whatever it is. So that starts spawning off these negative externalities. Um so it's it's it's a bit of a blurred line. So the let's uh maybe drift a bit over, you kind of mentioned it, um that we'll we'll start to talk about how it can be a superpower. Because I I've I've met a a ton of entrepreneurs that, you know, objectively just in the first kind of similar to your experience with the doctor, the first 10 or 15 minutes of talking to them. You're like, holy crap, like this guy's all over the place. Like obviously very, very smart, uh but just, you know, uh uh shiny object syndrome is something that often gets attributed to entrepreneurs. And I think part of it is attributed to this that, you know, they're they have grand ideas, they get really spun up and excited about certain aspects of of ideas and business and there's areas that they want to focus on. And at certain periods of their life, they can drop absolutely everything around them and focus on something. And that's not something that's necessarily associated with sort of the common understanding or the maybe the the pop culture understanding of ADD where they they have this idea of the kid in the corner of the class that just won't shut up, won't stop fidgeting, wants to bounce around and is really active. But they that form takes a much different uh uh different form once that person is older and it really can be leveraged and harnessed toward something of interest. You want to talk a bit more about that? Yeah, absolutely. The best way to understand this is to understand the whole dopamine receptor issue. So, and and the science isn't 100% settled on this, but it's pretty close to being it's they're fairly certain it's a dopamine and and to a smaller extent serotonin issue in the brain. So if um if dopamine gives you motivation, you're about to complete your essay, you're about to complete your work, you're about to finish something, you have this really good feeling. That feeling is is dopamine. Dopamine is not a pleasure chemical, dopamine is a motivation chemical. So as you're about to finish something, you're getting this motivating good feeling because of dopamine. So if you understand that, then you can take a look at the um stereotypical kid who's in uh grade three, who can't sit still and they can't focus and they're they're distracting to the class. They're not they're not um doing this on purpose. What's happening there is there's nothing motivating about sitting there and being focused. So they their imagination starts running wild or they stand up or they look outside, they're not they're not focused, not because they don't want to be. But because their brain is trying to seek out um different sources of this dopamine doing different things because the current thing they're doing just is not stimulating enough. So then, like you said, if you take this, fast forward this to when they're an adult and they they have a job or they're they're maybe an entrepreneur. They're so bored with the status quo, it's not stimulating at all that they have to do something else about it. They have to. It's not uh a question, it's not a decision that they make on purpose, it just happens. This piece of technology to do the current work just isn't stimulating, let's do this this thing over here that's potentially better. And then that's kind of a fractal because once you start looking over here at this new piece of technology or new new way to solve a problem. Well, there's other pieces of that that are also new. Maybe there's a new market you can explore, maybe there's new people you can talk to because the current people, the current market, the current stuff is not stimulating enough for you. So it's not that they have this uh superpower per se. It's that they actually lack the ability to enjoy the status quo as much as other people. I really like the description of a fractal, I think that's an excellent way to put it. The way I've kind of described it is falling down a rabbit hole and then there's a rabbit hole inside the rabbit hole. But the a fractal is a much much more elegant description of kind of the same thing. And it's interesting because like I I see this all the time that that there's just that that chasing of the new and the different and the exciting. And I think it speaks to exactly what you're describing there, both for you for kids as well as adults is uh almost that sense of novelty and interest, right? Is to you know, kind of have to juice it in a certain way. And what that can tend to come about is people that are a bit all over the board and, you know, constant sort of new interests and this is my new hobby and I'm going to start this business and doing different things that that uh sort of give them that surge of excitement. Uh and for the kids, like you said, um they're not they're not misbehaving. And I think that that's a really, really negative association with this, especially for kids. And I'll often describe, you know, I I think it's insane that anyone believes that an eight or a 10-year-old boy should be able to sit around and do nothing but pay attention for six hours straight. That's just not going to happen, right? And especially for kids that uh have sort of this this external or internal need for for novelty and for for excitement. They're I think you described uh being the type of personality where you were able to maybe go a bit internal to find yourself uh some some interest or some activity, something to keep you interested inside yourself through your imagination and other kids just look for an external source and end up getting in a lot of trouble. You maybe describe the difference between that internal and that external source of of interest. Yeah, there's there's something I think some people who have ADHD, they've been described as there's like three different types of ADHD. Um I can't remember what specifically they're called, but the the tropes are kind of, you know, you're hyperactive and you do stuff or you're very internalized and quiet. And then there's one in between. But um when you're internalized and quiet, you're actually going through the same process as that someone who's hyperactive has, it's just for some reason your own imagination is what's stimulating to you. And so you just kind of you're you're almost like day dreaming. Because your day dreams are really interesting. And and I think a lot of these people are are very creative because of that. Because you're able to keep day dreaming in these fractals of what if, what if, what if and then all of a sudden you have something new in your brain that they they can then put to paper. The the day dreamers and the doodlers of the world, right? Yeah, that you know, I just I was just writing a part of my book where when I was in grade four or five. Um I was the the way that I figured out I could pay attention was just by doodling. I would just take my worksheet and just doodle and my teacher came over to me and said, no doodling, this, you know, this is our worksheet. You can't doodle here. And um I was just very fearful and I was like, oh, I'm in trouble. And so I never doodled again and I remember I I don't I mean, I I don't know how much that reduced my focus because I wasn't able to doodle. Um there's there's these little things and fidgets and and stuff that that a lot of people do to try to at least half pay attention and stuff like that. Um and it it it is a very misunderstood condition as well. And and to your point about sitting, you know, kids sitting still for six hours, that was so difficult. And by the end of the day, you're so unable to focus that um but everyone everyone wants you to focus and you're not able to do what the the teachers and your parents and everyone wants you to do, so you feel awful about yourself. I felt so bad because I'm failing every day. Well, it's not that I was failing every day, it's that I was doing the wrong thing. So it's yeah. Yeah, it's interesting like um the the the doodling thing is I I didn't associate it directly to you, but again, it it sort of holds true. Um I've had the idea, I I I swear I'm going to do this at some point in the future, but um when I'm giving like talks at conferences or especially online or or uh uh doing courses, uh things like that. One of the ideas that I had is actually having like a coloring book, like adult coloring book, like an IT coloring book type thing, just to allow people to like focus on something while they're listening, right? Because you need otherwise you end up distracted and running off in some other direction, but if you can just sort of focus somewhere with a with a generally passive activity while you're listening, I think it it sort of satisfies that need for for some type of stimulus, right? That's a genius idea. I'd love to love to see that happen. Yeah. Um the so a little bit on the kids. I think um it's an important aspect and and part of my concern with sort of ADD and ADHD diagnosis is again, like a part of me feels like it's wholly impractical for for some kids, all kids probably, but certainly some kids to to fit within sort of the the current uh education system, what's required of people, what are the expectations of kids, those types of things. Um and I feel like there's an overdiagnosis of of this condition where, you know, you are just an an eight or a 10-year-old boy, you're busy, right? And and also this maybe bleeds in a bit into uh the adult aspect as well is is potentially overdiagnosis, like some people just have a bit of a busy mind, like maybe you're just distracted, maybe you do have brain fog. Like where would you say to help people align on, do I or does my kid have ADD or is it something that is is sort of something that should be addressed? How would you advise people to sort of to go about that? Yeah, that's a that's a wonderful question. Um so I'm not sure if there's an overdiagnosis or an underdiagnosis, it's it's possible that some people are overdiagnosed and some people are underdiagnosed. Like women are horrifically underdiagnosed with ADHD. Because they tend to be the the internalized day dreamer type, so you don't associate them with ADHD and they don't think they have it, right? ADHD is more of a a boy's, you know, disease in a lot of people's minds. Um and so in terms of diagnosis, I actually don't think it matters as much as people might think to be officially diagnosed. The only hurdle that that gets you over is that some doctor can prescribe you medication. That's it, that's the only thing that happens if you get diagnosed. You can take strategies that make you feel good and make you productive in a happy, positive way, and it doesn't matter if you're if you have ADHD or not or if you are diagnosed or not. It is helpful to be part of a community and say, okay, I have ADHD, what resources are out there for me? That is in itself very helpful, um but there isn't something that happens once you get diagnosed other than medication. Which brings up the point, well, is medication um useful or or not? For me, it's tremendously useful. It allows me to get over those, not all the time, but sometimes, get over those moments where I have this project to do, I can't get started. Um but other times, I need a lot more than that. I need to know how to use my brain properly. I need to know um that I should sleep eight hours instead of four hours or something like that. Um so, you know, it's it's not that people are over or underdiagnosed. It's more of a systemic issue of how people view work. And I think if you actually take a perspective um from that, from that way, rather than um should someone be technically diagnosed or not, then it doesn't matter as much. And it it doesn't go away, but it makes it a lot more easier to handle. Yeah, and I think that's a great way to frame it as well. Like talking about the sleep and the and the other factors of health, like uh like what are the other things that you're doing to support your brain and your body? Uh before sort of resorting to to medication because, you know, it it could be just that like you said, if you're sleeping four hours, like you're not exercising and you're eating junk food, of course your brain is going to be starving, unhappy and unproductive for you. And maybe if you address those things, you feel, you know, even 50 to 70% better and you're off to the races. Maybe it doesn't require medication. But if you get to that point where you feel like you've put in the time, you're you're eating well, you're sleeping, you're exercising and it still just isn't working for you, at that point maybe it is worth considering uh medication if required, right? Obviously consulting with with uh with someone uh qualified to to diagnose and and provide medication, but I I I agree, I think there's a lot more things that you could do before taking those steps uh that that might provide enough of the benefit that you need, right? Yeah, exactly. Um and there's but there is one more thing I think that diagnosis does help with that just came to my mind is you if you do get diagnosed, then you can start being a lot more objective and mindful about your symptoms. So if I am sitting here and I'm unable to write a chapter in my book or unable to finish a project, but then I know, okay, I'm having an ADHD moment. This is not my personal fault. It's not a lack of effort. I'm not doing anything wrong, this is just the way my brain works sometimes. Then that actually unlocks um a lot more in the way of, okay, well, what do I do now knowing that this is not my fault, I've done everything properly, what can I what different direction can I go for the day or for the next two hours that can be something productive or useful that isn't this and then I can come back later. And that like objective mindset and that mindfulness is something that I think is useful for with with diagnosis. And again, that's just a bunch of helpful strategies that doesn't have to involve um, you know, external substances or anything like that. Um so, you know, do do all does everyone need to to be able to know how to do those things? I think probably they do, but maybe if you do get diagnosed, you can understand that a little bit better. So that's a good uh segue actually. Because I I did want to get uh your perspective on on what is how do you manage it, right? So like what do you recognize and if you if you sort of recognize like you're you're scattered, you can't focus, you can't sort of muster the motivation. How do you refocus your energy? Do you just kind of admit to yourself it's going to be a down day, you won't be as productive, like trying to capitalize on the peaks and recognizing the valleys or is there a way like without the medication obviously providing some flattening of of that roller coaster of of motivation and and focus. Uh how can you sort of switch task or or do something else in those moments? Yeah, so the there's two ways that I think have been the most helpful for me. The first one is if I'm having a bad day. So my my goal for uh June was to write a thousand words for the book every day. And that didn't happen, I didn't I didn't complete that every single day. However, there were uh great days where I was able to write 1500 words, 1600 words, 1800 words. And then, you know, the next day I wrote 1200 words and then on day three, I wrote zero. But the first two days were so good that I was able to make up for my quote unquote bad day. Before what I would have done is said, I'm such a loser, I lost my streak, it's over, you know, this was a stupid idea. I'm not going to write this book. Now what I think to myself is, okay, my average is is great, I'm doing great and today's uh not a good day for me to write. What else, what's a totally different task that I can do that doesn't take creative energy that I can do today that still will get me a little bit closer. So, you know, creating a landing page for the book or interviewing someone or dealing with emails or doing something very mindless like chores, I call them uh in the book, I call them non I call them binary tasks, right? So like doing the laundry, you can't be excellent at doing the laundry. It's done or it's not, right? Or the dishes. Or um replying to simple emails or um, you know, signing up for some some web service to help you uh publish different things or or managing your Google analytics or something like that. Like that those are all things that are totally different tasks, still very useful. And then if, you know, easy one is, if I do laundry today and I do the dishes, well, I don't have to do laundry tomorrow, right? So then when I do have a good day tomorrow, I can fully concentrate on what I want to do. So, um task switching on purpose when you're having a uh non-creative day has been wonderful to me. And so has this idea that um hey, actually my average is still great, I've done a lot, today is just not going to be as great, but tomorrow might be better and if it's not, well, I'll I'll keep trying. Yeah. And eventually you'll you'll get back to normal, right? And the flip side of that, as we kind of alluded to before, uh what do you view as the superpowers? Because I I I have some thoughts on this. I I I'd love to hear sort of your view on on why uh ADD and ADHD is a is a superpower. So there's certain moments in ADHD life that are called hyperfocused moments. Some people call these manic uh episodes, um but that's more of a bipolar term, which is different than ADHD. They're however, they they do come out the same. There's also something called hypomania, which is a separate disorder, which also has these extreme um almost like obsessions or addictions to certain things. They're much uh they're much less extreme with ADHD, but but they still do occur. So these are called hyperfocused, um usually they last a couple days or one day or a week, somewhere around that time frame. Um and so what will happen is um you get this new idea, you know, from your dopamine going crazy and and figuring something out. For me, a great example is I built this web app, um it was a website, you could post and you could sign up and you could uh post different lists of things. And I built I've never built a web app before, but I learned how to do this and built about 80% of the website in one weekend. Which was basically two 10-hour days in a row of just sitting there with total obsessive focus, forgetting to eat, I didn't forget to eat, but you know, okay, I'll just grab a slice of pizza, I'm not going to make something healthy, um just being totally hyperfocused and then you go to sleep at night, you can barely sleep, you wake up in the morning, jump out of bed, you know, go again. That's that was a hyperfo I call that a superhuman weekend. And there's a couple problems with this, I'll get to that in a moment. But there's obviously some positives here, right? So I had no idea how to build a web app, but I learned how to use Laravel, which is a PHP web framework and I I I knew a little bit of other stuff before, but I I I learned all of this and built something in one weekend. I will forever remember how to do that again, even if I don't have a hyperfocused superhuman weekend, I will always be able to do that again. So I learned a lot. Um I mean, I did build this this app, which turns out was not a very good idea. Um and so there was a lot of benefit to all of that. And it helped me in my day job, right? It helped me understand what was going on with different technologies. So, um there's there's a couple problems with this though. And this is what you need to manage. Well, number one, that weekend was extremely unhealthy. I didn't really have a good sleep, I didn't drink enough water, I my diet was awful. Um, you know, I ignored my girlfriend, everything was was not um going in the way it should have. But the second thing is, I set those expectations for myself that I can do this at all times. Because hey, I did it last weekend, why can't I continue my work for two more 10-hour days this weekend? Right. Well, it doesn't work that way. I I've tried everything in the book, coffee, um, you know, doubling my dose of medication, um that doesn't work by the way, don't do that. Um, you know, um I I looked up every single thing in the book, I've I've forced myself to sit there and and stare at my blank, you know, screen, unable to start. Um and then what happens is not only can you not work on it the next weekend, but you feel bad about it because now you you are unable to work as hard as you know you can. But you have to it's it's very difficult to understand and be mindful of the fact that that is a rare occurrence once in a while. You can't do that every day, you can't control it, you can't turn it on when you want to. Um and so, you know, it's great I built this thing in one weekend. But it wasn't overall it wasn't positive, it would have been much better if I had done so slowly with a plan, with a strategy. Um however, to bring that all back to the idea of a superpower, well, I mean, I built a web app and learned how to do it in one weekend. That does sound superhuman to a lot of people. Um, you know, would I recommend trying to induce a superhuman weekend to learn something? Absolutely not. Right. But that is why a lot of people attribute it uh uh to the idea of superhuman. Yeah. No, that's awesome. And that aligns with sort of my experience in managing people that sort of I sort of judged as potentially being ADHD, uh where they just have these explosive moments where there's incredible productivity. Uh and there's usually a sag afterwards. And I think that that's part of what we can be more compassionate with each other when we're doing work is recognizing that those uh those sort of uh flow moments, like everyone kind of gets flow moments where you just you're working on something and time disappears and it's an hour later. You're like, holy crap, that was awesome. Uh but to have that for a sustained period is very, very different and I'm sure having that experience you can attest to. I don't think everyone really recognizes what that would feel like and what it looks like. But I can't I do sort of ascribe to the idea that it does become a bit addictive. You try to chase it, like you said, right? And that can be really, really dangerous. So just like the the the suggestion of trying to find a way to even out those ebbs and flows and working with the people around you so that they understand sort of when you're in this explosive moment. That uh what is this contributing and, you know, when you're in a down moment, you know, hey, you know, I'm just not feeling it today and that's not to say that, you know, I'm checked out, right? A lot of people will make judgments, I think, on those those events when someone is not as productive as as they typically can be or at some points have been. I think that that's that's a really important understanding for people to be able to frame for for both themselves, but also the people that they work with about about how to actually view this and when you can be switched on and contributing. Awesome, soak it up, right? But you can't expect that that's your your daily process either. Exactly. Yeah. And and um a lot of the times we attribute our own I like what you said about um when when people have lulls and you have to be compassionate about that. It's so important because I think a lot of people who don't really realize it, they they do attribute um, you know, this distraction or it's a dopamine receptor. It's not a moral issue, it's not a moral failing, it's that some chemicals in my brain aren't firing the way they should be. And um to be compassionate about that is also going to make those people happy and and happy ADHD people actually do great work. Yes. So you do have to to understand like you said that there is there is pitfalls to it, but there's also a lot of rewards to it and and and you can get really creative people who have ADHD. Yeah, so a little bit maybe about uh sort of your journey writing writing the book. Uh I I don't think anyone who has ever written a book would say that that's that's something I necessarily do for fun. I'm sure you're having some enjoyment out of it. I I certainly have heard from from people that have written book that it it's it's a lot of work. I'm I'm interested kind of about what you've felt in that and and your process working through it. It's been fun, actually. It hasn't been bad. I it's been a pull yourself up by the bootstraps kind of experience. Where I've taken all the things that I know I should do and all the things that I know are good for me and I've actually had a clean slate to do all of them in a in a very linear way. And it hasn't been bad at all. Um I it's it's a book that's um going to be about 30,000, 25 to 30,000 words. Which is um about 150 paperback small paperback pages. Um pretty quick ebook. But um working on it, I've used all the strategies I've talked about, so I've had those bad days where I write zero and I write zero and then the next day I write 18, 19, 2000 words. Um and then um I've had days where I've had these hyperfocused moments and rather than feeding into them and getting tired and doing unhealthy things. I've been able to pause and say, okay, I've done a lot of work today. I'm I'm going to stop I'm going to put the effort in to actually stop myself because this is not going to help me tomorrow or the day after. And it's been tremendously helpful just evening out my energy levels on a week to week basis. Um and I've been able to interview uh just a ton of people who have it's actually really fun to interview people who have similar experiences to you. And then when when you say, wait, you do that too, you know, and you kind of get this moment where you both laugh and and um you both feel good about yourself because it's not a a moral failing to be distracted in in these ways, it's just how our brains work in certain ways. So the the the book has been great, the reception I'm being having from the early chapters and the drafts and some of the people I've interviewed has been wonderful. I think there's a huge gap in this space that is being motivating me beyond just having fun building a project that I like. And um I I I really haven't had anything negative about it, it's just it's been a pretty positive experience. What was your motivation to actually write the book? Like was there sort of a moment where you said, okay, I I need to get this into some type of uh medium beyond just like maybe writing a blog post about your experience or something like that? Was it just a passion project or actually working through the process of of of using these tools and systems that you had access to? Or is there more a larger goal at hand for writing the book as it were? There was a huge gap in the market of this type of information. There's um three distinct avenues of of books and resources that I've found. The first one is very scientific, very psychological, very textbook oriented and and those are great, but they're not practical for day-to-day use. The second one is uh children's or parenting books. And I you know, I don't have kids yet and I'm not a child, so it doesn't doesn't apply to me. The third one was there's this very strange realm of self-help books that are either ADHD or ADHD adjacent where they don't actually say they're about ADHD, but they're talking about all these different things. And I've read a couple of them, I've I've listened to the podcasts, um I've I've dug in, I've I've done everything I could to research them. And there there is a gap in the idea that you can be very successful and happy at the same time and productive all at the same time. And there's no um you don't have to infantilize yourself about having ADHD. It's it's not something that is a um fragment of your personality from from you being a a hyperactive kid, actually, it's just a dopamine receptor issue that you can very uh very easily manage if you follow the right steps. And there wasn't a cohesive, coherent, straightforward and practical collection of these ideas. So that was the motivation, I just couldn't find what I was looking for, so so I wrote it. And um the second piece of that is uh when I was first diagnosed or even before then, there were had I stumbled upon these three categories that I just mentioned, I would have thought I don't have ADHD or I don't want to have the same ADHD that these people are describing to me. So now I'm I'm I'm building what I think that the 18, 19, 20 year old me would have uh found helpful. Awesome. That's that's a great motivation for it. Really uh really appreciate your perspective on this. Um obviously the book is still in the process. Um but we'll link to maybe a landing page. Do you have any any info that uh people could uh to get their their information to you for access to the book once it's available? Yep, it's ADHDpro.xyz. That's the URL, that's the landing page, you can find all the relevant links and and and and stuff there. Um I'm yep. And uh any social links people can reach out to you if they maybe want to share their experience or trade notes? Yeah, absolutely. Um so if you want to just find me on Twitter, uh direct message me or mention me, it's uh just @ Rob Murky, so that's R O B M E R K I. Cool. And we'll put all the links in the show notes uh once the episode's up. This has been great, Rob, really appreciate your insight. This is uh it's been a cool discussion and I hopefully it kind of unlocks the the other side of this and for some of the people that that maybe struggle with ADHD and and uh understand that how they can better manage it and better utilize it in their life. Absolutely. And and every step that we take in talking about this and and having people on the podcast and um, you know, all the messaging we can get out there of of what ADHD is and how you can be successful with it. I think that um, you know, the stigma starts to drop and and everyone gets a little bit more happy, a little bit more productive and uh we make the world a little better place one step at a time. Awesome. Thanks, Rob. Thanks, Todd.