ERP010 - Virtual Reality w/ Robert Merki

Welcome to Evolve Radio, where we explore the evolution of business and technology. On the podcast today, we're hitting a topic that is very close to my heart, virtual reality. This is a space that I've been involved in for a long, long time, in fact, one of my first jobs was actually working for a company called Virtuality out of the UK. that built entertainment systems around a virtual reality technology. My first headset I purchased in 1995 and have been a VR junkie in and out for years and years. Today I'm joined on the podcast by Robert Murky. Robert is the director of product for Cognitive VR. Cognitive VR sees tremendous growth in the virtual reality space and offers a great platform for using analytics within a virtual world. Their software helps virtual experience builders to better understand how users are interacting with their environments. Robert and I talk about the current golden age of VR and the differences in the market for virtual reality versus augmented reality. We also explore some of the use cases for analytics. Hope you enjoy it, let's get started. And welcome Rob, thanks for joining us this morning. Yeah, thanks a lot, I'm really excited to be on here. This is going to be an interesting conversation. I've talked a lot about VR in the past, um, I think when I met your CEO, I I kind of gave him a bit of my history as well that uh I've been in VR basically from the beginning. I've I've I used to have a Frenzel optic display and had a very early on headset back in the 90s. So this is a this is a space that I find particularly exciting and uh would love to kind of get your insights on the evolution of the market. And you know, for those that are that have followed VR for a while, VR is not a new industry, it's been around for 20 plus years, even more if you really want to look back at it. So I find it really interesting that that it's finally coming to the forefront in some type of very real both consumer and commercial application. Yeah, I think I think that's it's just super interesting how we finally got to a point where we have this consumer grade, you know, semi-affordable VR headsets that are that are out publicly and there's developers building cool things for them and there's very low barriers to entry outside of initial cost. Um, I I think, you know, over the past 20 years like I, you know, I think it's amazing you had a headset so so long ago. Um, but I think the the big the most interesting part is um just the fact that how mobile technology and the smartphone has kind of allowed us to have those very, very high resolution but small screens that we can just shove into a headset. Um, you know, use the same type of gyroscopes and and other sensor equipment and then strap that to your head and it it's actually a really compelling VR experience. I think um, you know, I think everyone in VR really has to give big great thanks to the mobile industry um for for uh pushing that technology to where it is today. Yeah, that's right, like one of the things I I certainly wanted to touch on is is why VR is really caught fire recently. If it if it the technology's been around for so long, the cost isn't dramatically different. And obviously the technology has changed, do you feel like, you know, the the Google cardboard uh trick really kind of uh launched things out? Or you know, were were the seeds generally being planted before that? What was sort of the accelerator moment in your mind? Yeah, I I think a lot of credit has to go to Palmer, Palmer Lucky and what he did with Oculus. You know, regardless of where you stand right now with um, you know, what you think of the Facebook acquisition or um, you know, what what's happened sort of with their shipping delays or or whatnot. I think um Palmer Lucky just kind of had this dream to build VR and I don't really think he cared where the technology was. Um, and it just happened that sort of graphics cards were there where we could give a compelling high frame rate um 3D environment in a headset. And he got really lucky in timing. Um, and sort of the industry followed his vision. I think VR before was just we didn't have the graphics technology. to give a compelling enough view into VR that felt natural and felt good and kind of soothed the uh lizard brain, you know, part of our head where we truly feel like we are in a virtual environment. I think that's the big um sort of bridge that we've got. I I I don't know if cardboard did a lot. I think. Cardboard is a great um way to get started into VR. But I think everyone I've spoken to has tried VR, didn't really get it until they strapped on an Oculus or a Vive or a Gear. And sort of had that sort of premium VR experience. Right. Right. I guess one of the other differences is is the virtual reality versus, you know, the mixed reality and augmented reality. Uh, you know, where do you see kind of the differences in in application between VR and AR? I think VR and AR are, you know, kind of brother and sister or close cousins or or whatever you want to call it. Um, I think VR will eventually sort of be the the game the video game console, the Xbox of the two and then AR will be the smartphone. Right, where um, you're going to go home and want to have this really, really high quality, high definition VR experience where you're playing a game or you're watching some sort of VR movie. And it's super high resolution with, you know, a dedicated box, piece whether that's a PC or some sort of console. Um, and and that'll be sort of that lives in your home. I think day-to-day, at least in the at least in the future, we will have, I think the smartphone will be completely replaced with AR. Right, I think you can if you think of Google Glass, um, you know, it wasn't a great product. But it it really shows what will be in the next, you know, 10 or 15 years. Where we have these headsets that just augment our lives and that's how we communicate and we don't need these, you know, awkward black rectangles in our pockets anymore. Yeah, the pivot point that I'm waiting for in that is the contact lens for the heads up display. Yes. Yeah. Yes. I totally agree with that. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Um, so Cognitive VR, the the company that you work with is focused a lot on analytics. And it's interesting when I first heard this idea, I I I didn't quite get it at first and then the more I thought about it that, you know, it really started to resonate with me. That this is going to be an incredibly important portion of of both VR and AR. Um, do you want to explain a bit about the the analytics portion and how you your company feels that that plays a role in the development of this technology field? Yeah, absolutely. I think um anyone who's who's built a website or built a mobile app has always wondered. How are how are my users using my app or my website? You know, the the easiest remedy is to throw in Google Analytics on desktop or if you're on mobile, something like Flurry or Mixpanel. Um, and if people are using your product in a way that you don't that isn't optimal and isn't what your vision was or or it's not helping them or they miss something. You need to know that information so you can make your product better. Right, any any app that you have on your smartphone right now, I guarantee has an analytics package in it. Um, and that's what we're looking at in VR. I think. Um, the other side of the coin is a lot of people ask us, well, isn't Google Analytics just going to launch for VR and you're you're crushed? And I think the answer to that is um, you know, when you when you look at the transformation from desktop to mobile. There was a lot of differences in the user interface and the user experience in the types of things you needed to to to track. Um, you know, there there was just a fundamental shift in how you needed to to analyze things. I think the same thing's going to happen with VR where if you look at mobile. Mobile and VR are very, very, very different. Mobile is a black rectangle that you tap on with your finger. Um, VR is all around you. So you're going to need to know, you know, just like in mobile where you need to know how people are using your product. You need to know in VR how people are experiencing your your narrative, your game, your marketing tool, your ad. So, you know, not only is there a fundamental transformation in how people use VR as opposed to mobile or desktop, there's a greater need in in in needing to know how people are using it. And that's because in VR, there's way an exponentially higher amount of interactions that can happen. Right, it's it's not in front of you, it's not on on your desk. It's not in your hand. It's all around you. And people are finding, especially a lot of our customers are finding that they build something and people don't really notice. Because you can't direct people in VR. You can put signs up, but you can't move the camera. You can't, you know, force an overlay on their screen because that makes people sick. So a lot of people are having this fundamental user interface issue where they build something and then people don't use it properly. And it's a fundamental user experience and user interface problem above everything else. Yeah, one of the the applications that kind of occurred to me and kind of triggered my aha moment in this is that if you have an immersive world, you know, potentially uh you could have advertising within that world. And you obviously want to know if you're placing some type of uh, you know, in-game ad or or a billboard in a virtual world or something. You want to see how many eyes draw towards that and it's incredibly important. That you recognize, you know, is it placed correctly, is it within a a field of view that people notice it, how long do they spend looking at it? So all sort of those people maybe be familiar with heat mapping, you know, on websites and you see kind of where people drag their mouse to, what they click on. And you guys are working on sort of the equivalent of where do the eyes go within a virtual world, is that right? Yeah, that's that's exactly right. Um, right now, uh there isn't eye tracking in VR. Um there are some headset prototypes that do it. Um the commercial sort of consumer ready ones don't do it yet. So right now we're tracking a focal point, which is good enough. Um, it's not perfect, but it's good enough. Um, but yeah, you're precisely right. It's it you know, if you have an advertisement or a billboard in your in your video, maybe it's a free-to-play video game and you have a Coca-Cola billboard somewhere. Right, you Coca-Cola's going to want to know the ROI. You know, did people really look at the ad or did they kind of sort of look at it but not really? You know, on on on mobile and desktop, there's it's so easy to say um, you know, how many people viewed your ad? Well, you know, just because they scrolled past it or even hovered their mouse over it, do they really look at it? You know, I don't know if they did. But in VR, you can tell with a certainty that actually yes, they did look at your your ad or your or your billboard. And maybe, you know, maybe you're in a game and you just want to tell, you know, part of a story and that's relevant somewhere in your level and and you won't want to know if people got got your story. Yeah, that's uh another portion that I was thinking of is, you know, you're building these experiences. And you kind of have to assume that people figure their way around. But, you know, the the importance of having analytics as an experience provider in my mind would be. You're trying to build a narrative, you assume that people might go to, you know, spot X and figure out that, you know, there's there's some book on a shelf that they need to they need to pick up. And if you do some testing and find that no one notices the book and continues to just kind of sweep past it without focusing, then you know you probably have a narrative problem. You need to sort of figure out, you know, do you make the book flash in some way to draw attention? You know, that and it can really kind of help to form the experience better if you understand how people are interacting with it, right? Yeah, that's precisely right. Um, that's and that's what we found a lot with our customers. Is they don't really know. They assume people are doing things. And they don't know. Um, you know, on desktop or you can just imagine a video game on on on a PC or a console where if something happens, then you can just launch a cut scene. Where there's basically a mini movie that plays and you can't, you know, you can pause the game, but you have to look at something. In VR, you know, everyone knows if you change your user's camera orientation on them. You immediately get sick. It's just the worst, it's most uncomfortable feeling ever. And and like you said, right, you can't do that in VR anymore. So you need to is is it flashing the book, is it, you know, maybe five steps before that? Do you need to make it more obvious some other way? Um, yeah, so in VR, you know, analytics is fundamentally solving sort of a a user experience or user story issue as opposed to a big data or a, you know, traditional analytics issue. So some of the the different technologies, you know, you've touched on uh, you know, the Vive and the Oculus. And some of the other ones, you know, like Magic Leap gets a a ton of attention, maybe in part because of the mystery revolving around it. And one of the ones that I see uh that that really kind of has a a commercial application traction is is HoloLens. And I feel like they're they're making good strides to provide commercial applications. You want to give me some some of your thoughts on sort of the different technologies and and what you're you're seeing in the industry as far as attachment? Yeah. HoloLens, I think and a couple others like Meta Meta 2 or I think they announced Meta 3 now, Magic Leap, I think they're doing amazing things. I think that's absolutely not just the future of enterprise, but the future of, you know, like we said, the contact lens will eventually be HoloLens number four or whatever. Um. And and the problems they're solving are extremely important, right? They've been strapped HoloLens to to people doing extremely dangerous uh work, right, and then they can see that some sort of danger is occurring right on overlaid onto their world and that's extremely powerful, right? Um, there was a demo at um at the Augmented World Expo the other day where um this company named Dary was showing a um how there's uh some danger and an extreme electrical issues with a a system. And they put the helmet on and and the the worker could see right away overlaid on top where the where which sensors were beeping. Which which sensors detected extreme heat. Um, so you're you're basically could, you know, saving lives by allowing humans to augment their world with very relevant information. Um, or if you're, you know, if you're an Amazon, um I know Amazon was thinking about doing something with HoloLens. Where you you overlay product information on boxes in the warehouse, you know, right away you increase efficiency tremendously. Um. So I think, you know, HoloLens, Meta, Magic Leap, Dary, extremely, extremely compelling and important work with AR. That's a really cool one. I like the the the uh the Amazon example because, you know, they have to go to all these bins. And there's huge towers and rows full of product and if they grab the wrong one and ship it out, everyone's seen these at these uh stuff on Reddit. Where people get these random stuff shipped to them, not even close to what they they ordered. Yeah. That's right. Before they even get to the bin that they're supposed to grab, they see an overlay and they they can just kind of reach into it, knowing that they're they're grabbing the right product. That's a that's a great example. Just sort of simple efficiency in an overlay in their their sort of their average world. Um. The I guess one of the parts that people may be a bit resistant to this and, you know, I think with as with everything. You just kind of need to get on the train because this stuff is coming. Uh, do you think people will feel that especially the augmented portion, you know, the virtual reality, you're taking you're making a choice to sort of involve yourself and get into some space or a virtual world? But the the augmented portion, you know, people may see it as a bit of a distraction or uh, you know, an interference with their their day-to-day life. If if uh, do you think there there'll be some resistance to that if you have have people talked about that in the market? Yeah, definitely. That's a very good point. There's a video on the internet floating around that I can't remember the true name. But I think it was nicknamed the augmented reality hellscape. Um and it was put together by an artist. And it's sort of just this the worst possible, you know, ads everywhere, you know, you got a point for going on the bus. And then it's this grocery store where every product is enhanced automatically. Um, you know, and then the the headset turns off and you see this really bland, boring world. Um. You know, and I I think that sort of um super distractive um, you know, almost annoying world of augmented reality is going to get rejected by people. I think augmented reality just like your smartphone, just like your computer is meant to help you. And I think the second it becomes annoying and distracting, you'll you'll turn the app off or or whatever it's called in AR. I think. You know, fundamentally augmented augmented reality by definition is is enhancing your reality. It's not meant to distract you. I think, you know, the people that make the best user experiences, the most minimal user experiences, yet are very helpful, will be the ones that come out the winners in in AR. And I think. You know, that's just kind of the way that smartphones work too, right, when when Apple releases a very sleek, clean, minimal design that's try to sort of meant to get out of your way. You know, that that becomes popular. I think the same thing's going to happen with AR. Yeah, that's an interesting point. Um, you know, the market will kind of decide. The way I would imagine this is it it would almost have to function like plugins. Like you can choose to have those those augmentations. And, you know, if you want to have your product dancing on the shelf when when you walk into the store. You know, that's up to you. But I agree if it's ever present and it's something that's forced upon you, people will either, you know, uh remove it or choose not to use it. So, you know, the market will kind of determine the the level of interference that it plays, right? Yeah, that's that's exactly right. I guess uh, you know, some of the other examples, um some interesting pieces, especially around the VR space. Uh that I'm I find fascinating is is uh experience uh almost the new version of the arcade, like in Utah, they have the company The Void. And they're kind of taking uh virtual reality to a a really extreme level where they're augmenting virtual reality experiences in a in a physical world. Uh and they set up, you know, basically a space that is customized around a specific experience. And you kind of run through the halls of, you know, uh an abandoned spaceship with, you know, monsters and things like that. Or the new one that I saw, they have a Ghostbusters experience and they they there's a a physical world. So when you, you know, you kind of lean out around a wall, you're actually against a wall. And, you know, they even have things like if you walk outside into a particular environment, there's misters, so it feels like it's raining. And this this whole idea of of these advanced experiences where where VR um plays an immersive role within sort of an immersive physical world. I think is absolutely amazing, I think it's really kind of the the true evolution of uh the entertainment space. Where movies become experiences and they'll probably still be a space for, you know, passive experience of of a of a storyline, but that active engagement in a storyline, I think will really start to capture people's imagination. Yeah, absolutely. I I think what the void is doing is is is. I think there's people have jokingly kind of dubbed it the fourth dimensional virtual reality. I think those will be extremely impressive and and amazing experiences. But I think they'll they'll kind of stay in the realm of theme park or roller coaster, you know, or arcade level. I I don't think, you know, I think the the fundamental transformative experiences will be ones you can take home. I mean, I think eventually the the technology that the void is using or will will somehow make its way to your home as well. Where you'll sort of have this like responsive designed uh VR experience where it interacts with your home in a way. But in terms of sort of the movie experience and and being able to really connect at that intimate level. Um with your experience and and your whether it's a movie or game. I think that's a very good point. Finally in in VR, it's more than just watching a black box in front of you. You know, that's that's a normal movie. And we're very used to that. And we can, you know, if it's a very compelling movie, you can get very very um attached to what's happening. But in reality, you're just looking at a 2D screen in front of you. And finally, we're able to to have this all around you and I think the emotional impact of certain experiences will be tremendously higher. This is why a lot of people are talking about VR as sort of the empathy machine. Or the the empathizer, um, where, you know, maybe you plant a VR camera in in a crisis. And, you know, it's no longer just a headline on your phone, it's something you can explore. And and be intimate with is and and we can finally feel empathy for events that are happening very far away. Um. So that kind of brings me to the point of is VR going to be an isolation machine? Or is it going to be something that we hide in our closet or or in our room and play VR and we're alone? I I don't think it will be, I think it'll be something that connects everyone even closer. Yeah, I agree, I think they'll they'll always be that subset of people. That that, you know, are looking for some other place to attach to and disappear in. You know, it's no different than, you know, the current concern around uh internet addiction. And, you know, there'll probably be people that struggle with the the difference between reality and and and virtual reality. But I I think that the fears of that being uh this black hole that kind of sucks in humanity and we all turn inward. I think it's overblown. I think people will still have the necessity to be able to have human interaction at at a sort of a more advanced level. And that this is more a function of uh enhancing the ability to experience things with each other. And I think that that's the part that I find really interesting about sort of the modern VR market. Is that it's collective experience, multiplayer games, you know, uh multi uh multi-person experiences. Versus just sort of an immersive world where you disappear and interact with computers. And I think that that was sort of the aha moment for me as well when Facebook acquired uh the Oculus technology, it didn't make sense to me at first until I sort of realized that, you know, the the advancement of uh that social space. And kind of that the real real life 2.0 uh being able to interact with with your friends in in other ways, uh it doesn't detract from the the physical experience. But just sort of gives you a different venue to participate in in something that maybe has a little more magic to it. So I agree. Yeah, I think just to add on to that too, I I don't know a single person who like I'm a huge gamer. I don't know a single person, even in traditional video games. Who goes home and and only plays single player. You know, alone kind of, you know, there are those really compelling experiences. But I think everyone wants to just have fun with their friends. And I think VR allows us to that, you know, to an ex to the next level. Yeah, definitely. Cool. Um, what are some of the the commercial applications? Obviously, you know, this is this is uh something you you've spent some time around toward the industry and, you know, the the commercial portion of this will be, you know, potentially a greater market than even the the consumer space. And what are some of the really cool examples that you've seen around the commercial applications for VR? Yeah, so. There is currently an arms race and I don't say that lightly, there is an arms race to build real estate. Um, sort of, you know, look at your home, your future home in VR and and real estate agents sort of give you a Google cardboard or a Galaxy Gear, um, and they let you see some home, um, without actually having to go there. There's an absolute arm race in building the platform that that does that. So that that's a very obvious one where you just strap on a headset and you're in a a future home that you might want to buy or maybe it's a home that doesn't exist yet. Right, it's a pre-built condo. Or sorry, a you pre-buy the condo before it's built. Um and you can you can look at it in virtual reality and you can just make a way better decision on um, you know, is this a home you'd like? That's that's definitely a very strong use case that I've seen a lot of. Um. I think training is going to be the absolute, you know, just best use case for for VR. And the simple reason for that is. You know, you you can you can train people and then just click the reset button. You don't have to like, you know, go back and, you know, land the helicopter and hope you didn't crash and then do a check. You just click the reset button and you're you're in the air again. You can try that maneuver, you can try that training exercise again. And, you know, not to toot my own horn, but there's definitely a huge role in analytics in that too. Right, if you have a 100 people doing a training exercise and 90 of them completely miss some safety issue. You know, you can track that right away and and you'll know that there's an issue with your training program. And that'll just make a lot of people way safer and and increase efficiency of, you know, training. You know, the the the Amazon warehouse example in AR. You know, we could train people to do that right right now in VR and they'd be way more efficient and they'd spend a lot less time training. The cool applications um some of the the um are kind of limited only by the imagination. As a lot of things with technology are. And the you know, I've seen a lot of the ideas around how those those training get communicated and and moved into an experience. So, you know, a heavy engine mechanic can can touch a certain button or an air space where, you know, the engine kind of uh virtually explodes out. And all the pieces pull pull back and you know, you can work on on the mechanics around something without having a physical product. And uh training. You know, heavy mechanics uh for, you know, aerospace, for mechanical production, even engineering. I see this as a a major space for this. But, you know, taking kind of auto task and those 3D rendering materials to a whole another level where, you know, it's immersive. You can kind of walk around something and understand how it actually fits together. You know, what are the the issues that you're going to have to consider? And moving that into a virtual space is as a a whole new degree of application versus just being able to view it on a 2D screen before. Um, you know, the intermediary I guess was was 3D printing, which allowed a a little more application for this and understanding a rendering in real time. But being able to have it in, you know, high definition, high fidelity uh space that you can explore, uh really kind of adds to a certain element to to how that is going to be uh applied to training and and understanding of of mechanics and and building, I guess in the future. Yeah, that's that's right. I think one last um really compelling use case I saw was um there's there's a company called Envelop VR. They're out of Seattle and they're building sort of a desktop environment um for VR and they have an app within there that connects to Maya. Uh which is uh as many people know is the really popular 3D modeling and animation program. Um, and they out you can work in Maya in VR on their desktop environment. And then it it automatically outputs, you just look to the right of you and you can see your 3D model as you're editing it change in real time. Um. So, you know, just just the work that you can do and and the the being more intimate with what you're doing and having a better look at things is going to be, you know, an insane production and efficiency boost for a lot of people. Yeah, really cool. You know, the now because the technology is so advanced, you can render that stuff in real time. So people are kind of uh immersed in the world that they're they're actively building. That's a really cool cool idea. The other portion of this is is, you know, we're just kind of getting to the tipping point where this stuff really starts to accelerate quickly. What do you what do you predict in, you know, we'll say the next two to five years? How do you think the the industry is going to evolve? Um. I think it's hard to make predictions on specific things, but I do know. Um, I'm I'm certain of that there will be so many VR and eventually AR, but for now VR. Um, experiences and products and and apps and um, you know, tools that you we just can't even think of right now. We, I think a lot of people are trying to build desktop or mobile era apps or games. And then convert them to VR. And I think those those are important because we're learning what works and what doesn't work. But I think there's going to be a whole new class of productivity tools and social networking tools. That just are different in VR. And and they're going to be we can't I don't know what they're going to be, right? It's like when the smartphone, when Steve Jobs announced iPhone, you know, we couldn't imagine Snapchat. Like that that would just seem dumb. Like it wouldn't make sense at all. But now that we have Snapchat, like, oh, okay, this actually really works on mobile and I get it. Um. And, you know, similarly like user interface is going to become in in just unimaginably different. There's going to be huge paradigm shifts, I think a really great example is with the with any smartphone. There's the the most common user interface um sort of element is the pull down to refresh. Right, I remember when that didn't exist. Like I I remember the first time I did that, I think it was on Facebook. Um and I just pulled down, it was so natural and so obvious, but someone that was a really hard design element to come up with. You know, I remember a lot of people having a refresh button. A dedicated refresh button and now it's just kind of like you pull to refresh. Um so what's going to be the pull to refresh of VR and you know, what's going to be the the home screen of VR? I think. Those those questions will be solved and answered and in terms of adoption and in market and industry. I think VR is going to be in way way more households than people think. I think it's going to take one Angry Birds or one killer app or one candy crush to make people go, wow. I want that. I I really and you know, they might end up buying a mobile VR headset to do that and I think mobile VR will be the industry driver. But I think eventually people are going to want those really in-depth intimate experiences that only a Vive or an Oculus type. Um. headset can can bring to you and I so I'm very, very um bullish on on VR. Yeah, it's uh. As we sort of said at the beginning, it's it's been a long run to get here. But, you know, the platform is certainly matured and, you know, it's it's it's a wide open space with a ton of interest. As to, you know, what this is going to mean. I think everyone realizes that, you know, the game is changing and that this will have very real world applications and and change sort of the fundamental nature of how we uh interact with entertainment and with training and with commercial applications, potentially advertising, all kinds of spaces that it will change. Um. But I agree, you know, it's it's a it's a difficult space to predict because anything that changes this quickly is you need one sort of tweak, one difference that that starts to accelerate everyone in a different direction that maybe no one predicted at all. So it'll be it'll be an interesting change. As to how this looks and but definitely interesting space to keep watch of. So we'll uh we'll definitely keep keep tabs on how you guys are working in in the market and, you know, the application of of analytics. Uh being a a major component to how people are understanding their experience and and designing uh the the UI and UX. Yeah, definitely. And I think just to tack on to that as well, right when people get very comfortable with having VR. Their their smartphone's going to disappear and AR is going to take over and people are going to have to learn a whole new a whole new device to their life. Yeah, that's that's right. I think it's not to be understated that, you know, the the phone will disappear. And it'll just become sort of it it's maybe something that you still have to carry. Uh, but, you know, it's it's kind of a a like you said, it's a black box, it's not something you necessarily interact with. So, you know, the shift that that that implies for how people interact with their devices on a daily basis. I think will will be uh interesting. This is something I've I've kind of joked with uh with my wife. That, you know, she she occasionally gives me a hard time for staring at my phone and uh, you know, if the kids are around, what does that mean and and how do the kids perceive that? But, you know, I always tell her that the kids will think it was silly. Back in the day when people had to stare at their phone in order to process that information and it just be overlaid, right? Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah. Very cool. So, Robert, if you want to give us your your details, if people want to understand more about uh Cognitive VR and what you guys are doing in the the market. Where can they follow you on social and other? Yeah, absolutely. So we're Cognitive VR, our website's cognitivevr.co.co. Um, you can find me on on find us on Twitter at uh just at Cognitive VR. We're building an analytics platform for virtual reality. We have customers who've installed us and and we, you know, we've helped them make better games and better experiences. And that's what I'm passionate about and um. You know, if if I will I will say one thing, if you're not in VR right now and you are interested in virtual reality, there has never been a better time to get into it. It's so easy. to download Unity or Unreal Engine. They're both free. Just open up a game, import a import a couple plugins and you can start making your own VR experience. Um and I I think that's an incredibly powerful thing that we're so lucky to be here right now. And it we're so lucky that it's so accessible. Um, and I think, you know, Todd, you you've been here for in the VR space a long time. Uh and I don't I you know. I I think I could say with certainty, it's been the easiest to get into today than than any other time in history. So. Yeah, I would just highly recommend if you're not in VR, go try it out. It's super super fun and and super exciting. Yeah, definitely a growth space for anyone who codes or want to code. Uh as you say, you know, you can use your smartphone to to get started. So the barrier to entry is really low. It's great. Yeah. Cool. Appreciate your time. And uh we'll definitely keep tabs and and maybe have you back in in a little while to see sort of how things are shifting, how things are changing. I'm I'm sure it'll it'll go quickly. That'd be fantastic. Thank you very much, Todd. Thanks, Rob. Take care. Bye bye.