ERP018 - AR and Mixed Reality w/ Miguel Sanchez

Welcome to Evolve Radio where we explore the evolution of business and technology. My guest today is Miguel Sanchez with Massation. I think that augmented reality and mixed reality are going to have a massive influence on how a brands market their ideas and products. Why simply have a glossy photo with some cool print when you can have a mini movie built into your advertisement? Miguel's company is leading the way in the industry, helping companies use leading edge technologies to create a more memorable and engaging experience in their marketing work. This market is evolving fast with all the big names getting behind AR after the success of Pokemon Go. Hope you enjoy the conversation with Miguel. If you enjoy the show, be sure to subscribe on iTunes, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcast from. Also, be sure to check out the webpage evolvedmgmt.com/podcast for show notes, links to my guests, and to check out previous episodes. Now, let's get started. And today we have joining us Miguel Sanchez with Massation. Thanks for coming on, Miguel. Hey, how are you? Excellent. Appreciate your time, wanted to chat with you about the AR and VR space. And I was searching around for some companies that are starting to work on virtual reality and augmented reality as a storytelling method. I felt like this was a bit of a fringe idea that something that wasn't really baked into the market yet and then came across your company Massation, which is obviously having some pretty good success already in actual deployments and market production. For this space, so I really wanted to have you on and get your perspective on on the growth of this market and how that's evolving, so maybe if you want to start, give us a quick history on Massation. I started Massation in 2009. I was in advertising, I was an advertising agency as a freelancer in many different agencies for years. I started in 2009 because one of the biggest things I saw was agencies and brands weren't taking advantage of new technologies fast enough, I thought. I thought they spent a lot of time engaging companies. But didn't really make the move because I guess they didn't really understand it enough. So when I started Massation in 2009, one of the biggest things was mobile. At that point, mobile was a very new thing, right? At the end of 2008, we did our first mobile app for Hyundai Genesis. It was a weird space to work in. And we had to figure this out for the the brand. But at the same time, augmented reality started to show its face in desktop examples. Kind of like where you would point your camera, you have a a printed material pointed to your camera on your computer and Esquire had just put out their cover that had Robert Downey Jr. on it. And it it was very, very cool. When I saw that, plus having just worked on a mobile app, I I just instantly knew that was the future. I didn't know, you know, when it would happen, but I just saw it and I said, okay, this technology is where it's at. And then what I was able to do is I started talking to many agencies and brands for for a very long time about these options. And finding the SDKs and finding people in the in the industry that knew about this stuff. At one point, I spoke to a a magazine. It it was a it was a Vibe magazine, actually. And they wanted to have Justin Bieber on the cover, but he couldn't be on the cover because they sold liquor advertising. He was underage. So I thought this may be a great opportunity for augmented reality, right? There were no rules yet. This is still Wild Wild West. So I said, what if we only show Justin Bieber in digital if they scanned with their phone? So you wouldn't actually see the picture of Bieber unless you use the app to display it? Yes, exactly. That's smart. Okay. And you scan the cover, which was not Justin Bieber, it was somebody else over age, right? And then Justin Bieber would rip out the cover. This is one of my first, you know, I was a great idea. I thought it was perfect. His management was okay with it. Vibe magazine was okay with it. I even, it was when I first engaged with Matteo, Matteo was the one that Apple bought a few years ago. I spoke to Matteo, Matteo was willing to work on it with me and make it happen. The problem was the production cost, the shooting of Justin Bieber ripping out or doing anything in AR. Was too rich for the magazine's blood pretty much. So it didn't happen. And I remember thinking, hey, I'll get someone else to do this eventually. And then it was about two years until I landed my first AR client. And I always think, you know, I should have funded that video shoot. I go back and say, you know, that was one of the first times I learned. In this industry, you know, they always say it's the chicken and the egg, in this industry, it's the chicken. You have to have an example to show. Because people don't understand this stuff. So I was able to, you know, doing that same process, we started talking to IHOp about doing an augmented reality example in their stores. They actually came to us and said, we want to try to figure out how to shorten the amount of wait time. By engaging customers better, so we showed them augmented reality. And they really liked it, but again, they had to sell the higher ups in their company and there was no example of what we were pitching. So I again, this time I bit the bullet and I actually made the demo. I made a demo internally, I spent the money myself. And it worked. They showed it to the higher ups, as high as it goes and they loved it. We did a test run and it did very well. And then we did a few more examples of it and it they both did very well as well. And from there it was very easy, well, easier to sell AR. It still wasn't easy. It hasn't got easy till last year with Pokemon Go pretty much. Yeah, definitely. Pokemon Go has definitely changed the market. Do you find it still fairly typical that you're kind of leading people around on this? You know, IHOp didn't come to you with saying, hey, we'd like to do something to make our our menu interactive, that was something that you had to pitch to them. Are people kind of coming around on that that they're asking for these type of interactive interfaces now? It is, it is getting much more common for that question to be asked. I still have to lead into areas where I see an opportunity to. It's definitely more times a month I'm getting called about, hey, remember that augmented reality thing you you spoke to me about years ago? What about if we did this? You know, stuff like that. So that is awesome and you know, the fact that I posted all the time like a maniac. People are meeting with me about these new technologies like, hey, I keep hearing these things in meetings, I just want to get your opinion on how I should be speaking about them. You know, it's just being a thought leader like I tried to be early on. Like, the reason I I I created a blog ARnews.tv was because a lot of times I was showing examples. Of these options, these opportunities and I would always have to link to YouTube, this and that. So I said, you know what, I'm just make one place where I can just send people to it. So let's give a a little description of a couple of those examples that have worked well for you. And and you have these market pieces out there. With obviously, like these are not sort of side projects or little local industry brands. Like IHOp is a pretty big brand in the US especially and the other one that you have that I noticed was Nickelodeon and Capri Sun. Huge brands, so that's that's great that you're able to actually break into that market. The IHOp one, as I kind of alluded to, was an interactive menu, you would hold a smartphone over top of the menu and what would happen they would see like animations on the menu. That kind of thing, is that what it look like? Yeah, so that took on many different ideas. And and where it netted out was. So the thing with IHOp, like you just said, it's a it's a national chain. But we had a real lesson to learn about franchisees and franchisors, right? So not every franchise has everything that every other IHOp gets. So we had to figure out what was the lowest common denominator, what would they all have? And what it was was, I don't know how many of your viewers go to IHOp, but right above the syrup, there's always some type of advertising. Talking about, you know, the new hot chocolate or the new pancake that they're pushing. So in our research, that's what we found was always there. So what we did was we said, okay, we're going to make that a content portal. The content portal could trigger games, animations, cool interactive experiences. Of course, budget and timeline kind of set those things along. But what we ended out with was the first experience was they were going to release a cartoon called The Breakfast Bunch. So we said, okay, this is perfect. We can we could either make the breakfast bunch run around the table with the kids or it could just trigger a video. They they chose to do a series of videos. So what it was was, you hold up your phone or an iPad. And you see a video, intro animation and then you can choose which videos you would like to watch by pressing the navigation. So this all happened in AR. And it was very, very successful and and it was successful without even having a call to action on the advertising. I don't know how many of your of your audience is advertising focused, but call to actions are like download the app. Do this, do that. And this didn't have that at all. It just was an image and on social media they told people what to do. Being as early as we were with AR, we were very worried about that. Like, there's a lot of steps to let somebody know what to do that has never been done before. What we found was people did it. If they were interested enough in the brand and the experience and people told them that it was cool, they did it. And on average, people were interacting with this thing four times. We were like, that's pretty insignificant. For an advertisement to be interacted with four times on average, that's pretty tough to do. Yeah, it's all volunteer as well. Like that's the amazing part of that is that they're just like, oh, this is cool. Hey, check this out and then tell their friends like, hey, I went to IHOp and they have this interactive menu on the that stands over the syrup. That's pretty cool, right? Exactly, so it was and of course, we really couldn't tie it back to, you know, selling more bacon or whatever, but the idea was. We kind of proved that with enough of a brand connection and peer pressure, people would want to download the app and to scan. That's still a question I get even to this day. Would people download the app? And I literally was in a meeting last week with one of the largest brands in the world and they were even still worried about that. And again, I I was able to point to IHOp and now Pokemon. And I said, you know, you guys have one of the biggest brands in the world. Pokemon, of course, very different brand, but very good audience that that is very connected to that brand. They downloaded this thing with no problem. So I don't think it would be an issue for a company like yours. I think as we start to see more not so gimmicky experiences, that will change. And even even the IHOp, I'll be honest, it was a little bit of a gimmick, right? It's not too utilitarian, like it's not many things you definitely need to do to see a video. But it worked. In that case, they wanted to solve a problem and it did solve it. The way that I see that is it's kind of like, you know, when I was a kid, they'd give you some crayons and something to draw on. Or some toy to play with, right? Now, the kids are usually stuck to their smartphone. Instead of having them playing Pokemon Go or, you know, checking their Facebook feed, they can actually interact with something in the restaurant, which is kind of cool. Which kind of leads me also to you said that things would actually jump off the menu plate in the center and kind of run around the table, so it's not just restricted to that single field of view. You can have things actually move around, right? So this was part that they didn't choose because the budget was too much. But definitely within AR, even back then, it was able to use what was called slam technology. Which basically creates data points of the camera's view and it recognizes flat planes, so like the table for instance, would have been recognized. And then the 3D environment, whatever you create and objects, they can interact with those 3D planes. We wanted to do that. We wanted to make something where kids can play with the the breakfast bunch, set them up and take a picture, stuff like that. But of course, budget on something that hadn't been proven, it was very new. They weren't willing to go for that. But we were able to convince them to make a game the next time. And that one also did very well. You basically scanned that same image. But it it triggered a game. And this time they had a call to action and they had two different images that you can scan. They they really bought in on on, okay, now let's try to see if we actually told people what to do. How well it would happen. And we got so many more downloads. And to bring up your previous statement about, you know, the crayons. That's how we initially pitched it. We said the same thing, you know, you have those those crayon things. But what we realized is not all franchisees get that. They don't all buy into that platform. So we had to do the app. Okay. Yeah. So how do you feel like on that that this is a bit of an evolution of the space that VR and AR are kind of giving you enhanced options for storytelling, right? It used to be that, you know, there's a placard and hopefully someone reads it and, you know, they pick it up, they flip it over, they check both sides and then maybe they put it down and they then they sit there and wait for their meal. Whereas this becomes a lot more interactive, a lot more engaging, right? So that you're probably able to draw them in because you're actually able to involve them in a story. Versus just sort of some visual aspect that may not be as engaging. Plus, the other part that I see is a huge advantage of this is that there's actually analytics. So you're not just sort of dependent on, well, I think our sales went up in these locations that have it deployed. No, you actually have data points that represent this, which is a huge game changer. Yeah. Exactly, like the way I I always think about it is I always think about minority report. That was the first time I saw even technology like this in the movies, you know, nobody thinks it's going to happen. But then when I saw exactly like I explained in the beginning. When I saw that you can hold up your phone to these options. And now I know the phone's tracking capability, it knows who you are, where you are, everything about you, right? So I said, okay, that is the connection like you just said to connecting data points of. Do these storytelling experiences actually change people's buying habits? I definitely always thought of it as that. When we pitch anyone, this whole idea of content portal is the way we pitch it. We say, okay, now anything can be a content portal to tell your story, right? It could be a printed magazine, it could be a poster on the wall, it could be a business card, it could be a flyer, it could be a face, it could be anything, right? You know, like you just said, the storytelling capability of this technology is mind-blowing and now even getting with the Holo lens and the mixed reality. It's so innovative and creative that it makes you think of things in a different way. You have to kind of think in as normal of a way as possible and what I mean by that is, how do we normally interact with each other? Not anymore this whole flat, you know, you're on a web page or you're on a mobile browser, email. This is like, how do we talk to people in the real world, how do you move through an environment, how do you access information when you're at work? Now you can start to incorporate these things into storytelling and now it opens up such an interesting opportunity to brands and to storytellers. And I just really look forward to like working some of that user experience stuff out. Yeah, that's the part that I find really interesting in this is that in a way, it really opens the options for you as a advertising or a marketing partner. But it also increases the complexity because the depth of the story is so much more than you otherwise would have had. Before it you design some cool layout and a couple of graphics and and some some fonts and as long as it looks cool and it's eye-catching, then you've done your job. Now, you actually have to have a story, there's maybe some storyboarding, there's character engagement, like the level of complexity goes up dramatically in these types of offerings, right? It's everything. And that that's one of the reasons why I saw augmented reality as such an option for, you know, differentiation of my business and myself. Was because every time you see a technology that encompasses all other technologies before it, you know something is there. So when I saw the fact that not only was it taking everything we do on the web, it was taking everything we do on the phone. But then it was even adding what we do in the real world. I was like, oh my God, that's that's everything. So I just dove in and I and now the world is starting to see the opportunities, which is awesome. And it's just it's just an interesting time like I like I always say. Like, we still haven't seen the big thing. Even Pokemon, you know, it fell off and people are not using it as much as they originally were. But it was so hot and it's already made a billion dollars within a year, which is insane. Snapchat is another one that, you know, is an augmented reality company, whether people understand that or not, and it's very popular. But I can't wait to the very utilitarian use of it where people are just using this every day and they don't even know what's augmented reality. But it's just helping them and that's where I'm hoping to find. And, you know, I'm sure someone will eventually, but it's just it's a fun time to see all the cool things coming out. Right on. So that's that's leads directly into where we're headed with this. But let's talk about the future. So the current portion of this is that you generally need to engage through a smartphone. Is sort of where things are at with the current level of technology. I think the near term, obviously, we talked about it before we started recording that Apple has announced that they're working on some type of augmented reality. What I would hope that maybe comes out of that if nothing else is solving that problem that you alluded to earlier. That you need to download an app. Whereas if the phone itself at least has, I guess the analog that I would make is like a QR code scanner where there's just sort of a base app that interacts with all augmented reality. That there's essentially an SDK, is that what you would imagine would be helpful from Apple? So in the very beginning, when about 2010, I went to a conference about augmented reality. And I was literally lucky enough after the conference to be standing and talking to the CEO of Blipper, the CEO of Matteo, the CEO of Euphoria. And of Wiki too. These are like the top SDKs. And I said, look, this is this reminds me of the browser wars. Back in the 2000s. Not everybody can win, but for augmented reality to win. It kind of needs to be a universal browser. Like if you guys could all get involved and say, hey, this is the browser that we all are going to work out of. And it just was that's not a good business move, right? You can't do that. You have to dominate, right? So they each one said, we're going to win. And I'm like, how could all of you win? Like, literally impossible. What I think is going to happen is there's going to be a browser that brings in all these SDKs eventually. And it's going to work very similar to Google and maybe it is Google, right? Where you look at something and it shows you all of the options you are able to see from it. And then you can choose what you decide to see. But in the very beginning, right now, all these different apps, right? I can scan a Pepsi bottle with my app and it triggers one thing, with your app, it triggers another thing, with somebody else's app, it triggers another thing. What that means is it's a siloed experience, right? So for a mass audience, they would have to know about all three of our apps, right? And that's very unlikely, they would have to install all three of our apps. The problem is until these guys decide to work together, unfortunately. Unless Google or Safari is able to embed this capability into their browsers, it's going to be forced through an app. It's unfortunate, but still right now, most users spend most of their time in apps anyway. So it's not that bad of a thing right now, I know eventually it will shift to browser-based mostly. But right now we're still in app mostly time, so I just hope. What it does is it makes the agencies and brands start to create a value proposition that makes users feel like no-brainer. I'm downloading this app, just like Pokemon did. If they are able to, you know, maintain the level of creative to do that and and force themselves to think that hard about why would they download this app and make it a no-brainer. Then the experiences should be better anyway. I think there's a lot of things that are going to be still tested. Experiences, capturing data and all this is is the the side benefit, but that initial challenge of creating a value proposition that makes sense. Is always there. Yeah, so some of the the more advanced technologies, I'd be interested in how you see them playing in your field. And where you see their them being applicable. So the next one I would say that's most close to consumer grade ready would be Holo lens. There's a ton of commercial production, usually more in the industrial side that's happening around this. But based on your media profile, you're pretty heavy on Holo lens as well. Where do you see that as being applicable next? Yeah, so Holo lens to me, when I first saw the video of what it did. Of course, I didn't believe it, like most people. I'm like, yeah, that's after effects. Yeah, right. But I was able to get the first version and once I used it. It was the same feeling of the phone with augmented reality. Where I knew this is eventually how we all will use technology. I don't know how long it's going to take. I just know it is what it is. That's this is how it is going to work. Holo lens is so innovative because most of these other platforms like the Holo lens. Where they they do mixed reality, they recognize your environment, your your everything. They're tethered to computers, so there's a limitation on how much you can move. But with the Holo lens, it is a self-contained computer, so you can literally walk around all day with this thing as far as you want. And it's still, I mean, of course, it's a two hours of battery. But it's just more free flowing and it still has that capability. So that's why I'm so interested in the the technology of the Holo lens. It's it's not because they have the best. And of course, Magic Leap demos, again, they could be after effects. They look higher poly. Which, you know, means higher level 3D. And understanding that the Holo lens is a self-containing device, they can't have that much power. So they have to have less polygons going at all times because it's a it's a it's a lesser processor. But the opportunities. Like there's literally games where you have a problem to find out. Like a who done it. Like a detective who done it. And you have the digital detective walk with you the whole time. You can walk around. The guy recognizes chairs and sits down in the room while you're thinking. It's insane. Like it's so cool. And then you can like, of course, see the actual crime happen and literally walk around the crime, reverse. You could do this in virtual reality as well. But when it's set in a normal environment, it just connects so much further to me. And then also for me personally, I do virtual reality as a company, my company does virtual reality, augmented reality. I can't spend that much time in virtual reality without getting dizzy. Still. And I and I do it a lot. With with the Holo lens, I've never ever ever got dizzy, not even one time. Because it's overlaid on your real world, which you never get dizzy in the real world. Unless you have, you know, a medical problem. But, you know, within this environment, there's no confusing of the brain. Like virtual reality, there's something off and your brain gets it and it starts to just throw you off and you just get like sick. The Holo lens, you don't get that. The only problem is the price point, right? Right now it's it's $3,000, $3,300 with tax. So that's pretty expensive for a hobbyist, right? Or even just a person that just wants to use it. Also, it's a content problem. There's not enough people with it creating cool stuff. But you see more growing up every day and and what I one of the things I'm starting to do is I'm starting to. Review all the apps that go up in the App Store for the Holo lens because. I know most people don't even know what I'm talking about with this game. But if you were to see this thing, it's just insane. Like it's so cool. And eventually I can see us walking around with a virtual assistant like this. And say, hey, I need someone to help me get this. And it's not a real robot, it's a virtual thing. That can go to Google for you and send this and walk around and say, okay, it's over here. Your keys are over here, Miguel. And, you know, walk to the keys, stuff like that. It's it's just so so many cool options available. Yeah, I I see it as interesting that the Microsoft, you know, they're making Cortana, their AI assistant, which if you know the history of where Cortana comes from. Your sort of vision of that AI assistant walking around with you is perfect, right? That Cortana is an AI assistant to Master Chief in Halo, in a video game, right? So in that same way, he views her standing around and talks to her, right, and she kind of appears in certain places. That's a perfect analogy to what you're suggesting. Is like Amazon Alexa, instead of Alexa just being an invisible person in your room that you talk to, you know, you call Alexa. She pops up in the corner and says, hey, how can I help you, right? Exactly, and again, it creates that little more human connection. But you're right. And one of the one of the the the problems with the Holo lens right now is it doesn't recognize your hands yet. Of course, I know they're working on that. So you have to tap to to um to choose things. And it's not easy yet. You know, it's it's even for a person like me that uses it a lot, I struggle typing for instance. You have to literally look at each letter and pinch. It's a bad user experience right now. But they allow you to speak. So a lot of what we're doing is around speaking instead of trying to figure out this this fingers thing. Which another platform has figured out the fingers. It's meta. Meta glasses. They actually recognize your fingertips. But they're tethered. So you have to be connected to a computer. So you again, you have one limitation or another. And I just really look forward to the days when all these limitations are gone. And we're just able to free flow and just use these technologies. Yeah, I've often said, I'm waiting for the ultimate technology would be the contact lens. That just overlays everything, so it's a HUD and the processing actually happens somewhere else, right? Whether that is in the near term is probably like a utility belt or something because it will be fairly heavy. And I think that's what people often miss in understanding these technologies is that it's very early term. And Magic Leap, especially lately, has gotten a lot of heat for, you know, their inability to to make the technology sub compact. But it's an extreme expectation that, you know, this early on, they would be able to basically fit this thing into the size of an iPhone. The amount of processing that goes on for environment recognition, the creation of the polygons. So I I think people are mistaken in in marking down all of these technologies saying that, oh, this isn't going to work, they're fleecing the customers. That's not the case. It's just very early term in what they're building. And, you know, give this stuff even five years and it'll be dramatically different. I mean, we used to have the thing the size of a spare tire in the back of our car in order to have a car phone. And now they literally fit in your pocket and sometimes they fit in an earpiece. So the micronization of this stuff will come, right? Yeah. It's just what I struggled to understand from, you know, I also I'm a product manager. Is why are they prioritizing quality of render over user experience, right? Like so to me, that's where Microsoft won. Microsoft said, okay, we're not going to be able to make Star Wars like it's in the movie render. But I'd rather be able to walk anywhere, right? I think the option of these computers are basically saying. You are untethered from a desk now, right? These computers are like, you can walk around with them. So the fact that you tether yourself to a desk, you're still stuck to the desk, right? And of course, they spent a lot of time on the sensors. And I wish they were spending more time on hand recognition. But I know that's something in the process of their product roadmap. You know, first thing is get it out there, see what people want and then understanding that that's a huge limitation. We'll get there. And that's where I see Magic Leap versus Holo lens took two very different product approaches. Magic Leap said, okay, we partner with movie studios, so they're going to want their movies to look as best possible, so they kind of were maybe forced to choose that feature. Making the highest quality first over user experience. Versus Microsoft, understanding computers and understanding this is the future of not tethered computing. They said, let's focus on movement. And being able to walk around environments and compute. So it's very interesting. It's just it's very cool. It's a good time to be involved in all this. It's also to see them raising all this money, but then you see stories like Dacry where they are also a tethered device. And they raised 130 million and now they have to lay off people. Because one of the big things people don't understand is when when you raise that kind of money. There's expectations very fast. So if you have $130 million investment, they're going to want to see some return on that investment within 18 months. And if the again, the user experience is not for right now. You're not going to see that return on the investment. So I think that's what Dacry is going through right now. I think I, you know, Dacry's one of the early guys. Dacry was actually in on that conversation as well. At that point, they weren't making devices, they were just doing the phone thing as well. They are focusing mostly on industrial, which is what I think the Holo lens is perfect for. I don't know if we even in five years, people are going to be walking around with those devices. Unless they're very small. I think in a work environment, in experiential events, just like virtual reality is. I think that's where these things sing. Even in sales opportunities. So think about selling real estate. Imagine being able to sell real estate of things that don't exist. But you can literally, and I don't mean virtual reality because you could do it in virtual reality. But really feel like you're in the apartment and literally walk around a virtual apartment, not push yourself through through a virtual experience. Literally walk it. And look around the table and look under the table, you know, open a door, stuff like that. I think is where this technology is. Nothing is is is is comparing to it. Yeah, it's it's going to be a a fun future for sure. That's this is kind of exactly what I'm getting at is I think people discount the capability just based on judging what they see sort of in its current form. But like with Dacry, like there's going to be some carnage on the road to success in this, there's going to be some people that that lose out in the market. And I think that's important because the people that are making gains are going to be really pushing the envelope and advancing the technology forward. I think you're right, the next three to five years are going to be a dramatic shift in what this market looks like. Yeah, yeah, I and it's it's going to be very, very interesting. I think we're in the age of like Atari and stuff like that in the gaming industry. Right, where sure those ugly, very pixelated games, but we played them, right? They were very good games for us back then. But now you look at them compared to what it is now and you're like, I can't believe people played that. And that's where I think we're heading. But it's still very cool. Like it's just super interesting even at this point, let alone in 20 years. Where I can I can imagine this is going to be so common that that we these conversations even are are like prehistoric. Right. Yeah. Cool. Well, we're coming up towards the end, Miguel, any parting wisdom or anything I'd like to leave the listeners with? One thing I just would like to see more of is people engaging with these apps, just just try it out, give people like us your your feedback. Because one of the biggest things is as as a product manager, we want to know what you would like to do. And then if you can if we can understand more of that, we could come up with solutions that use these technologies, right? And if you're if you're just understanding Snapchat's example, you're you're missing out on so many different options. Like I remember first time I saw the face recognition and you can change your face to something like a dog. I said, who the hell would want to do that? And it's incredibly popular. Now it's like the most famous thing ever. And that's what I mean though. Like it's just really hard for us to know what is going to be the popular thing. You know, I have to give it to Snapchat for even putting that out there and testing it, right? I would have never thought to test that, but they did and it worked. And it's just it's just really engaging this stuff and and and start to to, you know, give your opinion. And this that's what's Twitter for and and and all these things. I think it'll help, you know, speed up the process of us getting to the best point of this technology. Excellent. And where can people find you on social and look for to find more and engage with you further? I'm mostly on Twitter at M Sanchez World. I have the blog ARnews.tv where I I spoke about, you know, really chronicling a lot of this. And my company's Massation. We are looking to keep pushing the content limitations of these products and create cool marketing with it. Cool. Appreciate your time today, Miguel, and we'll see you in the future. Thank you, Todd. Thanks for everything.