ERP066 - Crafting An Information Experience

So, self-service is one of those things where if it works, it's awesome. If it doesn't work, it sucks, right? And what I find, and I've done again, a lot of research on this. We did tons of research at Amazon. I have friends in the content industry that work in bots and they do all kinds of research. And what I've seen is that this idea that customers don't want to self-serve is a bit of a cop out. And here's why. If I'm company XYZ and I have a bot and people are still contacting my agents, and I look at that and say, oh, they don't want to self-serve. I'm looking at the wrong thing. I should be looking at my bot and saying, is it actually helpful? Welcome to Evolved Radio where we explore the evolution of business and technology. I'm your host, Todd Kane. Today on the podcast, I'm joined by Megan Gilhooly, VP of customer experience at Zoommin. Megan has a really interesting perspective on how information creates a user experience. This spans from technical documentation to user prompts and software. It's an area of the technical industry that isn't as flashy as others, but the conversation with Megan really opened my eyes to the importance of being intentional about how you present information to anyone. It could be users of a product, it could be technical staff reading documentation. These are all areas that would benefit from an intentional approach. So please enjoy this thought-provoking conversation with Megan. Joining me on the podcast today is Megan Gilholy from Zoommin, VP of customer experience. Welcome, Megan. Thanks, Todd. Glad to be here. How are you? I'm great. Thank you. So, we're going to be talking about customer experience. and sort of the the user experience overall, largely from probably a support perspective. But I think we're going to meander into a couple of other cool topics. And I love your history on this. You've worked at some well-known recognized places like Amazon, for example, which is obsessed about customer experience. So, I'd love to get some insights there. People are always very curious about Amazon like, oh, really? Like, can you tell me about that? So, that'll be a a great dig in. I think a great lead in is um, you have an expression that I had not necessarily seen before that I would love sort of your definition and thought on, which is information experience. Can you tell me how that relates to the user experience? Yes, absolutely. So, I come to customer experience through sort of an interesting path. I was a content manager for many, many, many, well, probably many decades. And as part of that, we came from technical writing where we wrote these old books that were 900 pages that were we put them in PDF and we'd send them out in these big binders. And it was just this sort of clunky experience for for our users. As we sort of moved through the the decades, that became a much more dynamic HTML output, that kind of thing. And so we switched from being called like director of tech pubs or director of technical writing to director of information experience. And the reason for that was we wanted to look at content not just from a standpoint of how do we create the best book that nobody's ever going to take off their shelf and read. So, how do we actually create content that is a strategic asset for the company that can be updated in real time, that's dynamic and published to the customer when they need it and where they need it. And so information experience is that aspect of customer experience where people are interfacing with your content. Okay. And I think that that's an interesting cross-section because technical writing, I think doesn't get sort of the love that it it needs in a lot of organizations. It's not sexy. No, it isn't. It's not sexy. But it is absolutely required, right? Like, I'm sure people have that experience of, you know, they're using a tool and something is not incredibly clear, and then they click on help and, you know, it just goes to like a basic page that gives you no real detailed information. Or worst case, it's outdated. And I've had some experiences where the documentation is very university style, it's kept refreshed, it's actually really, as you say, dynamic. It's not look it doesn't look like it was written 10 years ago and never updated. I think it's something that just doesn't get the time and attention. Is this something that you feel is also practical for kind of the small and medium-sized companies or is this generally sort of the realm of the enterprise experience? Yeah, that's a really good question. I actually came from startups before going to Amazon, which was a bit of a leap. But yeah, we still thought about it and there still are ways to improve your customer experience. HTML is not something that little companies can't have, right? HTML is is for everyone. The question is, how are you putting it together? Are you building it yourself or are you going to experts to to help you figure out what actually will be the best customer experience. So I I think what I see a lot is the smaller companies will try and dive in and just sort of tinker with dynamic delivery of content and usually they'll fail and then they'll eventually figure out that they're failing and then they'll go have somebody help them clean it up. But yeah, there are definitely ways that that we work in the content world that will help ensure that you're creating really rich structured content so that the output of it can be modernized as needed. And I think it's it's really important to note that technical content really is this sort of strategic asset to a company that as you say, probably doesn't get the love that that it should. That technical content provides answers for users. And your users are looking for answers. So why not give them the product answers they want, right? If they come to the website and they see an answer from marketing, and then they go to support and the agent gives them a different answer, that bust trust. And I did a lot of research at Amazon that really proved that out that that is one of the inconsistency across platforms or across channels is one of the biggest trustbusters that you can have. So, why recreate the wheel, right? If you're building marketing content and you're trying to make it more useful, why would you not just go to the tech docs team who's now creating this dynamic delivery and say, hey, how can we reuse what you're already creating? So is there a place that you would start that develops sort of a core narrative then that everyone else can borrow from or at least kind of that that sort of central library experience where the meat of most of the company is developed and then you just kind of leverage off of that in different areas. Is that maybe the right way to think about it? Or is there a different place to start? If you say that there's an organization that has kind of no content and they know that they should do this and they they need to build up some documentation for user support or just a a platform that they run or a product that they have. Where could they really start for their information experience? How do they think about this? Really good question. So, it's kind of a chicken and an egg thing, right? It feels like you go into it and you say, well, I need to have content and in order to have content, I need writers that will write great content. And in order to have writers that write great content, I need to have a really engaging way to present their content. And you end up in this sort of vicious cycle. So I think I would start first and foremost in looking what the looking at the ecosystem that you have currently, where are people creating content, so where are they authoring it, where are they storing it, and then also look at where are your customers trying to access content. And I always call those the doors they're coming through, right? Your customers are coming through various places to get content from you. If you look at those two ends of the spectrum, then you'll have a pretty good idea of where you stand today and that will define what you need to do next. If let's say you're forcing all of your customers to come through one door, your customer experience is probably going to be very, very low. But it might mean that your authors are also upset because you're asking them to author in one tool, right? So there are a lot of companies, they make their first mistake, which is force everyone, all the authors in the one tool, all the customers in the one tool, and then we're good, right? Because then there's no inconsistency. That's better than having inconsistency, but it's not an ideal experience for either authors or customers. Then you start to look at, well, I've got developers that are creating really great developer content, API docs, that kind of thing. I've got marketers creating content, I've got tech writers creating content. I've got support folks who are creating knowledge-based articles. So, how do I ask all of them to pull their stuff together? And the answer is you don't. You want your authors authoring where they're comfortable. Because otherwise you're not going to have great content. You just aren't. So, then you have to start looking at, okay, I have all of these authors that are authoring in different places and I need to pull that all into some unified experience that I now need to push out to multiple places where the customer is getting it. And so what you really have to do is you have to have that what I call the magic in the middle. You have to have the system in the middle that will aggregate all of the content, unify it, display it in a unified way, display it with appropriate personalization and all the great things. And then push it out to the various places with that same unified experience so that no matter where the customer comes in, they get the same answer and they get the same voice and tone that you would expect from your brand. Okay, that's a that's a great place to start. One piece that comes to mind that is more sort of the, I guess, the evolution of documentation and information kind of dispatching, I guess, for lack of a better description. What are your thoughts on video and how would video be leveraged in line with documentation? And the part of the reason that I ask this is that the information density is way higher, but as a result, editing that information after is probably a lot more difficult. You can quickly change some HTML to update something or to refresh or add something, but to change a video, especially if it's long form, that is really difficult. So, what are you seeing kind of in the industry, the how people are leveraging and thinking about video in in documentation? Yeah. I love video. So, video is one of those things we have a love-hate relationship with it, right? For exactly the reason that you stated. Not only is it difficult to update, but when you think about localizing it, having to localize video and then do updates to localizations. It just becomes this unwieldy thing to the point where there was a time where people said, no, we're just not going to do video. Now, I do know that there are places today, there's a lot of really cool technology out there. There's one I know that will actually pull structured content and will create a walk through within your video automatically. So there there are really cool things out there in terms of video, but I think at the end of the day with video, you have to have a strategy. You have to know how important is video in engaging your customer. If video is highly important, then there are lots of things you can do to make video production, video management, and video publishing better for both the producers as well as the customers. But if it's not sort of top on your list and and if you're a small company especially, it might not be worth the time, especially to dive into something like long form video. Social media makes it so easy to just push out 30-second videos. that you may just decide, yeah, I'm just going to do that. And that's fine if that's part of your your strategy. But I think ultimately, where you don't want to go, and I think this is the important thing. When it comes to videos, if you think of a YouTube page where people have no idea what they're searching for and they just have to look through video after video after video after video after video. That's not going to work, right? Like that's not going to be all that helpful. Or if you put up a a WordPress page on your on your website and then you just have random lists of videos. Again, not overly helpful to your consumers and probably not where you want to be. So you really do have to pull that video in and wrap it in some way so that it's also searchable, it's also personalized, we're surfacing exactly the video that you need when you need it as a user. That's where we ultimately want to get to. That's great. It it kind of aligns with my experience on this actually. I'm thinking recently of a a tool that I needed some some details on and I was on their their documentation web page and I I kind of preferred video because I wanted to see the walk through of of the kind of the screen cap. But, you know, I was caught in exactly that situation of like, is it this video? No. Okay. Is it this video? Right? So. Yeah, and it takes you like 45 seconds to figure out if it's the right video or not. You can't just scan a video. Yeah, right? So, I guess in addition to that, if you have the the transcript of it so that people can scan that, that can be helpful as well. Yeah, great. So, a lot of the audience is in the IT industry, sort of very specifically in the IT support portion of the industry. And user experience from a help desk approach is sort of frictionful in sort of the best of times. I'd like to get sort of your your thoughts on something in particular that I think is underleveraged in a lot in our industry and help centers in general. So, you have a quote here that says 73% of customers prefer to solve product issues on their own. Support interactions are increasingly happening online. This is from a post of yours on medium, which I love. I I love the idea of self-support, but I understand people's sort of hesitance to use it because it feels impersonal. As if you're kind of creating this barrier in front of the people. Right? A lot of people in the help desk world will say, we will always want a person to answer the phone and they sort of push people to the phone so that they can have this human experience. And I understand the motivation for that, but I think one, it's really inefficient because then you're caught in this synchronous support situation that's based on timing of both and kind of creates this long tail experience. So I'd love your your thought on sort of the customer experience of self-service bots or that type of style where you you're providing the information in a timely fashion to serve that up for people. Yeah. I love that you brought that up. So, self-service is one of those things where if it works, it's awesome. If it doesn't work, it sucks, right? And what I find, and I've done again, a lot of research on this. We did tons of research at Amazon. I have friends in the content industry that work in bots and they do all kinds of research. And what I've seen is that this idea that customers don't want to self-serve is a bit of a cop out. And here's why. If I'm company XYZ and I have a bot and people are still contacting my agents and I look at that and say, oh, they don't want to self-serve. I'm looking at the wrong thing. I should be looking at my bot and saying, is it actually helpful? Because I can tell you, like with Amazon, if I can go in and do a return in 10 seconds on Amazon by boom boom boom because a bot tells me exactly what my next step is. I'm a happy camper. If I had to call an agent to do that, that would not be a good experience. On the flip side, if I decide I want to, I don't know, contact support because maybe something's something's broken and I have to contact support to figure out how to fix it. If I am served up something that tells me how to fix it myself and it's convoluted and it's messy and it doesn't work, then clearly I'm going to contact support, right? So, I think I was I was very lucky to see some of the work at Amazon because I see how much work goes into creating really, really great self-service. And the reality is most of us are not good enough at creating self-service to be able to say, yes, I know that my customers are going to self-serve. We need other people in the industry to help us do that. So, that's kind of my my take on self-service. I think people will do it and they would prefer to do it if it was seamless and frictionless. Yeah, it's a good point. How much of this do you think is generational? Personally, you know, I'm kind of on that millennial Gen Xer line and I I recognize my tendencies in both sides of this. But I will absolutely try to hit chat before I want to call someone for support. And part of it is like I I can multitask. Like I I don't want to wait on hold and listen to some bad music and and wait for someone to respond to me. And then end up in sort of this this very cold and mechanical support experience where you can tell someone's following a script and not really empathetically listening to you. So some of it is the quality of what we generally experience in these service desks, but also like I just find it easier of like, I'm going to bang out this question and then I'll wait in the queue, do something else and when you're back, you can tell me kind of what I need to do here. But I also know a lot of people are like, again, they they feel that that's impersonal or they want to talk to someone on the phone. And I've generally heard people suggest that it's probably a generational difference on that. What are your thoughts on on chat versus human support? Yeah, I I think there I know that there is a generational difference in terms of what will cause somebody to start with self-service. What I find is that most of us who are older than you are trained that self-service usually doesn't help. And so because we've had so many bad experiences with self-service, we have learned not to even try, not to even bother. There are companies I go to where I'm like, there's no way I'm going to try and self-serve because I know I'm not going to get my answer and I know I'm going to end up getting on and having to get on hold anyway. So what I might do is I'll call and I'll start being on hold and it'll say, you know, 20 minutes or you're the 56 person in line or whatever and I'll sit there listening to the the really bad music while I'm trying to self-serve. And I'll kind of test it and I'll say, well, if if I can't self-serve fast enough, then at least I'm ahead on the other. So, I think when I as somebody who has been well trained that self-service may not always work, when I get on, for example, that Amazon example, that was a real example. I got on, I I no longer work for Amazon, but I was like flabbergasted at how easy it was. I had this issue. It was that I think I ordered an exercise mat and the exercise mat said it showed up, but it wasn't at my door. Now, there's a good chance that one of the porch pirates took it. I have no idea. So I was like, oh, this is going to be hard, right? So I get on and I type in my problem. And the bot comes back and gives me choices. Well, is it missing? Is it broken? Is it, you know, it gives you obvious choices. My choice was on there. The next question, my choice was there. The next question, my choice was there. Boom, we'll send you a new one. And I went, oh my gosh, this was amazing. That was an amazing experience, right? And so now with Amazon, obviously, I will continue to self-serve because I know that they've they've captured a lot of the really tough use cases. When I call my doctor, I'm not self-serving. Why? Because there's nothing I can do. I can go on to my chart. I can do all kinds of things. I can email them, but I'm not going to be able to self-serve. So you just you sort of learn over time. I do think that the younger generations are going to push back more on any form of having to contact people, especially after what we've been through the last year, right? The idea of needing to be personalized 40 years from now is going to be like, I don't want to have to see you. Personalization is give me what I want without me seeing you or talking to you. Yeah. 40 years from now, it might be it predicts what you need. You don't you're not even aware of it. Oh, thank you. I didn't realize I needed this. Yeah. Right. Well, even five years from now, right now, right? People expect, I mean, Netflix does that today. So. People go home to Netflix and Netflix serves up exactly what they think they want. And you look through and you're like, oh, I didn't know I would like that, but Netflix is saying, so I'll try it. And then you end up loving it, right? So there there is that even today that sort of consumerization that is is necessary. Yeah. So you you mentioned Amazon. I I sort of led in with we might dip into this. Like you're coming from sort of the startup world where it's scrappy and everything is is you know, you're kind of shooting from the hip a lot. I'm curious about the Amazon culture and kind of your experience in in jumping between those. Like Amazon is a is a gigantic company, no question, but I also get the sense that it is also experimental and iterative. Like what was your experience in there and what was your experience about how they think about the user experience because I know that they are absolutely customer obsessed. Yes. Yes, customer obsession is the leading principle at Amazon. They want to be the most customer obsessed company and I I do believe that they are. A lot of times we think we're customer obsessed because we think about the customer, but it's not nearly to the level that Amazon is. Amazon's willing to lose money in order to do what's best for the customer. So all of their principles lead up to this idea of customer obsession. And you know, they do claim to have sort of a startup mentality and I would say there's a lot of entrepreneurial spirit and there definitely is an iterative methodology that goes on. But they are very heavy in the data. They do have a lot of processes that slow things down. So they still are a very large company. So it was a little different. I think one of the biggest shockers going there is that they don't really, they're not a PowerPoint culture. And they almost they make fun of PowerPoint culture. So they write these documents. Everything's in a document. You never do a PowerPoint. There are pockets where of course you have to, but for the most part when you're making decisions, you do it via a six-pager, not through a PowerPoint. So there there were shifts like that that I think were were difficult, but in terms of the customer obsession, I mean if if you want to learn about customer obsession, just read any of the letters to the shareholder that Bezos wrote. I mean, they're incredible. They really do make decisions with the customer first and foremost in mind. Yeah. Okay, great. I want to switch back. There's a couple of other things that I wanted to dig into on the the support side. I want to get your perspective on the onboarding experience. I think that this is a really key moment and particularly relevant for for our audience as well, when they win a new client and they want to bring on that person into into their their platform and to their service. I think to me, it's one of the most important points of that interaction with the customer. There's the proposal around the service and getting introduced to each other. But that first 30 days of their experience with you as a service entity is an absolute maker breaker moment. And the way I kind of describe this is you want to start with sort of the trust bank or at least the gratis bank really, really full so that inevitably, because it's IT, stuff's going to happen, things are going to go wrong. But you want sort of this high level of trust and support that you've filled up the bank with and I think that that starts from an onboarding perspective. So, I'd love your thoughts on what makes a great onboarding experience from a documentation standpoint, from a customer interaction standpoint, sort of wherever you feel is is sort of the most pertinent points that people need to get right in that process. Yeah. I love that you brought trust into it and the idea of a trust bank because that really is what it is. You're right. Things are going to go wrong in any process, especially onboarding, but if you have that trust, then it lends itself to people being a little more lenient on the the places where you go wrong, right? So in terms of onboarding, I think I think first and foremost, the customer experience starts when they're still in the sales process. And so one of the the biggest hiccups I see is when what people learn in the sales process doesn't match either in terms of how the product works, what the features are, how the process goes for onboarding, what it's like to be a customer, what the voice and tone is. If there's a stark change in any of those things from sales to onboarding, then you're going to be in trouble. So I think it's first and foremost, we have to really think about the entire customer experience and how we build trust from day one. And then from there, it's really about seamless handoffs, right? And one of the ways that you can create that seamless handoff is to have some really great self-service experiences, to make sure that you're getting the same content to people in the sales cycle that you're giving to them during the onboarding process and sort of beyond. If you're doing videos, they shouldn't be, here's a video just for customers who are in this segment. There should be videos, yes, you should personalize, but there should be videos that can be used and match the tone of the videos that they were getting throughout the entire customer journey. But I I think ultimately, when it comes down to to onboarding, people need to trust the person that's helping them through the onboarding process. They need to be able to self-serve on key deliverables, right? They don't want to have to wait for somebody to implement some big massive thing. And they need to understand that the value that they were sold, they were they were sold on a certain value and whatever that value is, they need to know that they're going to realize that value. And I think if you can if you can think of those three things, then you're in a pretty good place. Okay, perfect. And recognizing this next question is not necessarily kind of directly in sort of your realm of expertise, but I think it's certainly something that is maybe worth bouncing off of you to get your insights on this because your lens on customer experience, I think speaks well to this and and sort of your your experience in the industry with with sort of tools, platforms and that technical writing perspective. There's sort of a number of vendors out there that, you know, they have written a very useful platform, say 10, maybe even five years ago in some instances, and it's really starting to show its age. And before we started recording, I kind of posed this to you and you I think nailed a really important point that I would love you to reiterate is the expectations that our consumer behaviors and our consumer interactions with software are creating in the enterprise and even the mid-market space. So, can you kind of expand on that customer and user experience with software platforms and why we kind of need to be keen to what people's home experience is? Yeah, absolutely. This is this is huge, right? The consumerization of content experience brought into the B2B world. And we're having a hard time keeping up, right? It's more difficult for B2B for whatever reason. But ultimately, if you think about, if we go back to the Netflix example, right? I go home and I'm served exactly the entertainment that I want, exactly when I want it. And Netflix has something like, I don't know, 2,500 personas that they use that they have, you know, and they've got multiple data science teams and they've got, I mean, they've just got so much going towards what it takes to personalize that to me. Now, I go to work and I'm working with a vendor and my expectation is, well, Netflix can do it, why can't you, right? We have consumer apps. One that comes to mind is one of my favorite apps is for Brooks shoes and Brooks shoes is like they're expensive, right? And I never really bought it because I've got a large family and I always thought, oh, I need to save money. And then I recognized when I bought a pair of of running shoes, they have this app that's called, I think shoe finder or something really simple. And you go through the app and it gives you very specific questions in ways that are easy to understand. So for example, it doesn't say, do you pronate or supinate? It says, take your shoes off, stand with your feet parallel and look at your feet. What do they do? And then they show pictures. Do they look like like facing out? Do they look like they're facing in or do they look parallel? And so then you choose the one that that it looks like. And then they they'll give you the the scientific reason for that if you want it, but you can just kind of fly through and do it. So, now because of this content, I actually buy Brooks shoes for my entire family and I spend way more money. But when I go to work, I expect like, where's my app to figure out how to to send this email through my marketing tool, right? Like how how can I answer this question easily? So we have these expectations that are being built in the consumer world that we then come to our B2B world and we maintain those expectations. And I think it's great. Because it causes us to think more rigorously about our customer. We always, always, always have to think, what are their expectations not just of my product and my content that relates to my product, but what are the expectations they're gaining externally that are now going to impact how they consume my content or use my product? That's great. I think the example is perfect because I hadn't even thought of it in in sort of that that type of content example. But it's a great one. I think it really speaks to understanding who you're writing for. And I think in technical industries, people tend to get caught behind the eight ball on this one just saying like, well, this is the relevant information, this is what you need without necessarily a consideration of of the person consuming that information. It is what it is is sort of their viewpoint. Which I guess I respect, but you know, I I think it's difficult for them to sort of break out from I guess anyone in in any instance. It's it's difficult for you to break out of your form of knowledge, right? So like I know these things, they're fundamental to me. It's difficult to sort of tear those down and start from a fresh mind of like, what would I need if I didn't know this? I think do you have any maybe exercises or something around how to consider this to sort of break yourself out of your preconceived notions and think from a blank slate of the person consuming that information? I don't know that I have exercises per se. I mean, there are dozens out there that claim to do this, but I I think the things to think about are first, have diversity on your team. Because diversity on your team will always lead to diversity of thinking, right? They're going to think differently about it because you have all types of people represented on your team, right? If you are selling like Brooks shoes, they're thinking about what makes it easy for me to find it, but it also made it easy for me as a mom to find shoes that fit my kids, which can be a real challenge when you have a lot of kids that are constantly outgrowing shoes, right? So, you can have diversity on the team in terms of not and I'm just not just talking race and gender, I'm talking like have quiet people and people who are obnoxiously loud, like any type of people. So just make sure that you have a really good diversity team thinking through what the best alternatives are. And then the second aspect that we need to consider is go to your customers and ask them. So, you can't make an assumption that you know exactly what your customer is thinking. One lesson that I learned very early in my career is that being human doesn't make me an expert on humans. And I have I've done many talks on that and it's definitely the biggest lesson I've ever learned. But it's true. Just because I would do something a certain way, doesn't mean that's the way everybody wants to do it. So, have the diversity on your team and then go talk to your customers and find out if what you're doing works for them. Excellent. So, Megan, we'll look to wrap up here. Any thing that we haven't touched on that you'd like to spend some time on? Well, I would say knowledge orchestration, I think is something that's that's big for us. So if we can talk about knowledge orchestration and how we do that in the support world. I think from an IT perspective, I see a lot of folks that are really focused on security and making sure people have what they need. And they tend to take themselves out of what is this like for the customer? Whether it's your internal customers or your external. So, when we really think about knowledge orchestration solutions, I think it's it's really important for IT folks to understand that there are times in which security and customer experience are at odds. And sometimes the more secure route is the right route, but sometimes the more secure route might not be. I'll give you an example. I've heard this a number of times, but studies have shown that password creation, passwords are stronger if you take four plain words that are completely unrelated and push them together than if you use all kinds of different caps and special characters. Yet, time after time after time, I get onto an app and it won't let me put four plain words together. It expects that I have special characters, capital letters, lowercase letters, numbers, all of this stuff. So they put all these rules there thinking it's more secure. The reality is it's not more secure. The studies have shown it's not more secure. Yet we still tend to do that and that is a negative customer experience. By forcing me to fit into something that I, you know, it's harder for me to remember for whatever reason. But it's easier for folks to hack. So, I think that's one thing. And then with this ability to take your content that you already have and push it out to multiple places, it's really, really, really, really important that you're focused on what makes your author's experience good and what makes your customer experience good. And then as an IT professional, you can sort of fit the middle together and figure out how do you make that secure and how do you get the analytics you need. That stuff is sort of the magic in the middle that you need to make happen. Perfect. I'm with you in the camp of killing passwords. Passwords create less security because of those restrictions that they put on. I know Microsoft has a big push on this about basically finally killing the password with with sort of very rudimentary and basic biometrics to start with. But, you know, for me, a combination of a password manager and face ID on my phone is brilliant. Like, I'll just look at the the camera and you can fill in my password for me. Fantastic, right? Yeah, exactly, exactly. Cool. Very cool. Yeah, well, if people would like more information about yourself and follow you on socials and check out your company Zoom in, any any places that you would refer to people see? Yes, absolutely. So our website, zoomminsoftware.com. You can reach me at Megan.gilhooly@zoomminsoftware.com. You can find me on LinkedIn at Megan Gilhooly, Twitter at Megan Gilhooly. I guess LinkedIn is just Megan Gilhooly. And yeah, definitely reach out, give a follow. And I love to, I also send out a a Friday reflection every week. where I just sort of summarize some fun stories that that come to mind and they're a little they're a little different. They cover everything from my kids to what's going on at work to stuff that happened at Amazon. Sort of bring it all together, but most importantly, I curate some of the the most important CX related content that I read because I read a lot. So, anyway, there you can go to zoomminsoftware.com and find me on there and and sign up for that if if interested. Awesome. Well, I appreciate your time today, Megan, and thanks for being on the podcast. Thank you. Appreciate your time. Have a good one.