ERP023 - SOP Culture w/ Raj Goel

Welcome to Evolved Radio where we explore the evolution of business and technology. Welcome to Evolved Radio, I'm your host Todd Kane. And today's podcast, I'm joined by Raj Goel, CISSP, and Raj is the founder of Brainlink and the creator of SOP Culture. Raj and I explore the benefits and the challenges of creating an SOP driven culture in your business. And SOP Culture was formed out of years of Raj standardizing his team's work at Brainlink to ensure consistency of service that gives him an unusual competitive advantage in the market. SOPs and documentation are big in the MSP market right now. So hopefully you find some useful nuggets in this podcast. If you enjoy the show, be sure to subscribe on iTunes, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcast from. Also, be sure to check out the webpage evolvedmgmt.com/podcast. For show notes, links to my guests and to check out previous episodes. Now, let's get started. Today on the podcast, I have Raj Goel, CISSP, CTO and co-founder of Brainlink, as well as the creator of SOP Culture. Thanks for joining us, Raj. It's a pleasure to be here, Todd. Really wanted to have you on and talk a bit more in depth around your your product in particular SOP Culture. Standard operating procedures and documentation is a big thing in the MSP space right now. This is a product that you've had around for a while and built from your experience in driving an SOP culture within your own MSP. So I wanted to get your thoughts on on how you actually proceed and and move forward in in advancing that reform and changing the culture within your MSP and your organization. So that one, you have that information available and you have the data to to to have the team work off of. But also how you can actually get the team to buy into that cultural change. And actually working from a documentation-based workflow. So uh looking forward to having the the the conversation on this and hopefully people find some value in that. I hope so too. So why an SOP driven culture? Let's start there. What are the competitive advantages that operating as an SOP culture enables for you? Uh the key thing it enables us is to standardize our service. So uh you know, when we started doing this, we didn't I didn't set out to invent SOP culture. It sort of happened out of necessity, uh necessity being the mother of invention in this case specifically. Uh, you know, I had wonderful text working for me, but I would send the same tech out to a client set of three computers, he'd do each of them differently. And one of our clients had a major upgrade coming at 37 desktops. And I knew that there was no way one person could do it. Uh but to get send two, three, four, five people to do that job required standardization, required processes. Um, and for me, it really stemmed from looking at our service. Comparing it to Starbucks, comparing it to my favorite restaurants and realizing just how far a gap there is between what we delivered as a service and a customer experience and what we expect from a local pizzeria or Starbucks or the Fryers Club. And the SOP culture has enabled us to improve our service and our client experience in incremental steps. Uh standardized service, standard way of delivering things, standard way of training our staff. So from a competitive perspective, it has done several things for us. It has first given us a very solid library and training materials to train new staff on. Which is the most common complaint of new hires, you know, what are you going to train me on? So now we actually have when somebody gets hired in a technical position at Brainlink, day one they're given, here's your 1670 page legal PDF manual. Of the 70 most critical recipes you must practice and train on and learn in the first 90 days. You know, that's roughly 8 recipes a day. Some recipes take an hour to learn, some might take 10, 15 hours. There's enough time in the calendar to do it. But this means that by the time they're ready to go to market, they know how we do things, they know how to document things, they know how to create configurations in Connectwise, they know how to follow the process or create new ones where necessary. They're not reinventing the wheel and they're not making mistakes. Because what we found, what I found is doing the work was the easy part. But going back to clean up a mistake, I didn't set the Outlook signature properly or didn't set the email greeting properly. Or the voicemail or the fonts, these little, little issues. That are not a big deal in the larger scheme of things were a death of a thousand paper cuts. And they were bleeding profitability, they were bleeding uh client uh retention. They were causing a huge stress in our team. And now being able to say and being able to do, you know, we've done a 37 workstation replacement. We've upgraded Timberline on 40 computers, we've just finished a massive. 365 migration for a hedge fund that we support. And everything we have done is documented and you can follow it. And the beauty of it is, and I've learned in hindsight, I can't fix people. I can't fix attitudes, but I can fix process. And every time we do something and we find, okay, you know what, we forgot to do that step or that step needs to be added. It's much easier to fix the process and next time around you deliver a better service, a better product with less defects. So I love the analogy of Starbucks and McDonald's because it's the franchise model, right? And part of the reason that people really like that is that it's predictable and they know what to expect. I went traveling in Europe with a friend of mine a long time ago, he refused to go into any restaurants that he wasn't familiar with, but he was comfortable with McDonald's more often than not because it was a common experience. So I think that has a lot of practicality in what you're talking about that there's there's that repeatable expectation of what people are going to have as as a function of their service. Yeah, it's not the franchise model more that I'm attracted to because in New York we've got great restaurants like Peter Lugers, which is one place in the world, or you've got Raos, which is only in Harlem, you got the Fryers Club only in Midtown. What separates these three from the McDonald's or your your local steakhouse, your local restaurant is a consistency of service. Why do I choose to be a member of the Fryers Club, which costs a fortune and it was a pain to get in? Because the service there for the last seven years has been exceptional every single time. My worst experience there is better than my best experiences elsewhere. People wait six months a year, two years to get to Peter Lugers, it's you can only get Peter Luger steaks in Brooklyn. People fly from around the world to go to Peter Lugers because they've heard the mystique and the reputation. But it's the consistency of the customer experience that has people coming back. Right. And for us, that is the most critical differentiator, you know, to be blunt about it. Um, I know a lot of MSPs and I really thought we were good and and I thought we knew what we were doing, but in reality, we weren't Starbucks, we weren't even Alice's Diner. You know, some days we're making coffee, then smoking a cigarette, some days we're smoking a cigarette, not making the coffee. You know, some days we were great, some days we were terrible. In fact, most days we were terrible. And it wasn't until several clients rebelled and said, we're not paying for this. And uh, you know, having some very, very painful, humiliating client one-on-one meetings to debrief, what went right, what went wrong. And something as simple as a two workstation rollout or something as large as a large Timberline upgrade or large Bloomberg upgrade. Those are learning moments. Uh, there were several clients I almost fired because meeting with them was humiliating and painful. But in hindsight, I'm glad I didn't because their demand that we elevate our standards made us better, more profitable, more successful, and I'm never going back. Yeah, absolutely. The uh, the do you find that the onboarding? When people are kind of taking that that uh the playbook that you provide them and there's a ton of detail in there. Do you find that that's intimidating for folks that I can't imagine that that's the commonality? Because training is not sort of the best uh experience in most MSPs. Then people probably come to you guys from somewhere else that's maybe less mature. And they're met with this gigantic book that they have to read to. Do you do you find that there's some resistance to that? There's a lot of resistance. You know, our hiring stats are in the last 36 months, three years. We've had roughly 4,000 resumes hit our jobs board. Uh, everyone goes through our higher select uh testing. So out of the 4,000, 270 actually took the test, about 220 met our cognitive criteria. Uh, we getting a resume and it's just we got a resume. Getting them with their cognitive filters uh tells us if they're smart enough to work for us. If they're too dumb or too smart. We pass them on. If they fit within our cognitive valley. Which is something it took me about two years to learn. And when we set it up, I tested myself, I tested my existing team. Across every position and then took us a year of going through candidates. To recognize what's too dumb and what's too smart. So we use that uh then during the interview process. We tell them up front. We are a very, very training intensive standard intensive culture. And if that's something they're not looking for, they're not gravitating to, please move on. Um, ours is the the our IT industry. Ours is the only industry that has a lot of standards and uh you know, pays lip service to standardization and homage to it. But in practice, we're all doing stuff on the fly. If our doctors, our lawyers, our bakers, our pizza makers behave the way IT shops do. Civilization would come crashing in 10 seconds flat. And the SOP culture lets us prevent entropy. It's our it's our finger to chaos. So how do you balance the need for process and flexibility then? Because there are some situations where people need to kind of think on the fly and be able to adapt. And that may not fit the process that's been defined. How do you give people enough guidance to to when to not follow the process? So first off, uh having common sense and having a brain is absolutely critical. You must engage brain before touching keyboard. But the Brainlink mantra for SOPs and now we've been doing it for years, so we live by it is. You're either using an existing SOP unmodified, that's about 70% of the tasks. 70% of the time you're doing something that was done before as is. About 20% of the time you're updating an existing SOP. You know, how do you set up an Outlook signature in Outlook 2016 is only slightly different from Outlook 2010 and 2013, it's not a radical change. So go ahead and modify it. So you know, the mantra is, you're either using an SOP and modified, or you're updating a brand uh a existing SOP, or you're creating a brand new one, or you don't work here anymore. So number three is critical. We create brand new when we first started, we're creating new SOPs on a daily basis. Now, we create a brand new SOP roughly twice a week on average. That's 100 new SOPs per year for the last two years on top of the 900 plus that we update on a regular basis as we use them. Technology isn't constant. This is not an excuse to stop thinking or stop using your brain. What it does do, however, and I'll give you an example of this. So we've standardized on our uh Sophos Cyberoom firewalls. Uh, one of our larger clients three years ago paid us a decent chunk of money to set up a HA cluster for them. Since this was a high risk tier one client, we spent a month in project planning that rollout. And we what came out of it is all the questions we had to ask. Uh and to answer. Do they have, you know, VPN, do they have any static IPs that we need to do port forwarding on? Do they have um any other dependencies? Uh, who's got VPN rights? Who doesn't have VPN rights? What is allowed, what is not allowed, what countries are blocked, what countries can never be blocked? Etc, etc. What are the IP ranges internally for the multiple networks that they have? And when we took this project plan, which is in Connectwise, we templated it and now for every client, whether you have one firewall in your small office of five people or your large hedge fund with 250 people, we can use that template. And use the questions we built in that project to go through every client and go, you know, if you only have one firewall. All the HA stuff can be deleted. If you don't have VPN needs, the VPN stuff can be deleted. If you have a simple network and you're not running in a 15 classes internally for different purposes, that can be simplified. But by using the process, whether it is setting up a new firewall, onboarding a new client, onboarding a new employee, it gives us a checklist of how to do things correctly. And 99% of the time, what it really does is have somebody go, you know, I didn't think of that. I'm so glad, you know, this question's there. And this applies to everything that we do. Because biggest risk we run into is solving a problem or doing something without asking the client what they were actually looking for, making assumptions, and that's where profitability gets bled to death. Yeah, it's so true. I mean, the the the analogy that I use um in checklists. People often kind of rail against them saying, well, you know, I've done this a million times. I know what I'm doing. But there's a reason that people that have been flying planes for 30 years still use a pre-flight flight checklist. That you you have to make sure that you've done all of these things. And in fact, you're almost more at more risk of skipping things because you feel like you're familiar with it. So checklists, I think are are really underutilized. Absolutely, and SOP Culture is not just standard operating procedures, it's also checklists and it is built on a foundation of four books that are required my team to read in the first year. Uh, checklist manifesto, get things done, four-hour work week, um, and one of my two books. Their choice. But the first three, you know, get things done. Trains you in how to get things done, how to delegate, how to follow up. For our work week is a master's level discourse on how to delegate things, even the things you never thought you could delegate, like making dinner reservations with your spouse or girlfriend. Uh and then checklist manifesto is a life-changing book because it is. It has saved, you know, checklists have saved more lives than any other invention in the 20th century. Each every time we go on a flight, and I'm on flights on a regular basis, my pilot's going through more checklists every single flight. Then we as a company do in the entire year. My doctor goes through more checklists. My car mechanic goes through more checklists than we did as a company and most of our peers do. And checklisting, creating checklists, creating SOPs and following them and being able to capture drift is absolutely critical. You know, the common fallacy that we ran into is, yeah, we've done this, you know, we'll do it again, yeah, we've done what we're doing. Well, technology changes, client needs change. What do you do with a 37 workstation rollout or a 50 DVR rollout, they don't happen on a single weekend. They can take weeks, months or years to do. And one of the things we love being able to do now is being able to say, Yes, these first five machines we followed SOP version A. You know, we had deployed those out, we got feedback from your team, from the client, we did some lessons learned, some things updated. By the time we did machine 6 through 10, we were up to SOP version E, you know, Rev 5. By the time we get to machine 35, we were up to, you know, SOP H. So why is this different here from this machine? It's not, oh, let me look at the ticket. Uh, I don't know. Each ticket that we do on a desktop rollout has the SOP attached to it as a PDF and the checklist attached to his tasks in the ticket. So we can actually see over time how things differed. And that's really the where it helps the root cause analysis. Because you always have to wonder, why is this machine different from any other machine? What was done differently to it? And SOPs and checklists let us do that. And how do you balance uh where that information exists? So you have uh the the SOP platform. Uh and you have uh Connectwise and maybe a documentation tool. What what's your integration strategy look like for for the tool set? Uh, great question. So all of our SOPs live in our documentation portal, it's built on confluence and a couple of plugins we bought and a couple of plugins we developed. So all the SOPs live in our confluence soft culture server. But the actual work and the task lists live in our tasks and tickets in Connectwise. So uh when a tech handles a ticket, you know, when our clients responded today with, you know, I'm locked out of my machine. He logged in, looked at her machine, looked at she was locked out in AD. Not only did he go in and unlock her in AD, but in part of his ticket, you know, there's the summary to the client, you know, dear client, you know, dear Todd. Uh, thanks for contacting us, I've unlocked your account, please let me know if you have any other issues, signed Anthony. Then, you know, underneath that below his signature, we have a technical details section, which is exposed to the client, it's not internal notes. In there in our staff actually puts the link to the URL of the SOP or SOPs they followed. Wow. And part of our QA is if we see a ticket. Without a link to an SOP or SOPs, uh it gets kicked back to the tech. What SOP did you follow? Uh, this is critical for the tech. It's critical for the client. And it's critical for whoever else is going to be dealing with this client or issue two months down the road, which could be the same tech. It's in and having a links to your SOPs in your Connectwise tickets makes life so much easier. Because as I said earlier, 70% of the time you're solving the same problem over and over again. You know, unlocking the user or you know, you're setting somebody's 365 password or giving somebody VPN credentials. You know, one of the areas that was an accidental um benefit for us. Uh serendipity, you know, finding uh gems and trash. Is we did SOPs and our server and our tool list to put them as PDFs. Without my knowledge, one of my employees emailed a phone setup SOP to a client of ours. My first reaction was, don't do that, this is, you know, internal IP and it's not as pretty as I'd like. And you know, don't do it. But what we discovered is when you give that to the client, we noticed a 70% reduction in help desk tickets and how to set up my smartphone. Because that person not only did she use it, but she showed all of her colleagues, everyone who had the same phone, the LG Android phone. They stopped emailing us, they get to help get help setting up their phones. And from that day on our practice changed. When we do client facing tickets. How do we set up your iPhone 7, your iPhone 8, your uh Samsung S7, your. How do we set up your VPN, how do we set up your Outlook signature, anything client facing? We'll do the work, we'll give them the ticket, we'll give them the PDF in the ticket, also separately as an email. They can print out, they can put it on their dashboard or whatever they like. They can always call us for help, but by empowering them, it has reduced a lot of the recurring tickets. That were frustrating to them because, you know what, when I get my phone destroyed or I get a new phone, I don't want to wait 15 minutes an hour or two for some tech to get back to me. I want it now. And this has been a wonderful, wonderful tool for us. Because now clients are much, much happier and this has led to our clients being the stickiest we've ever had. That's really cool. Yeah, the the self-service functionality is is massive. If you if you can get people to to glom onto it, right? And if it's self-serving in that fashion, then it'll it has a a lot faster uptake, I would I would imagine. Um, what about the the areas where people should start on this? Because I think documentation and SOPs can feel kind of intimidating. In your head, you know, there's 10,000 things that you need to document. Where would you suggest people start, is it workflows, is it troubleshooting? Is it procedures, where where where did you find you got started and where the the best bang for your buck was? I got started by reading an article in the Economist. In December 2012, they did a lovely article on the Great Hotels of the World. And in a sidebar, they interviewed chairman of Marriott, Mr. J.W. Marriott Jr. And he, you know, he had a lovely quote in there, which I've used many times, he said, you know, I am not exaggerating when I say that our fortune was built on something as simple as a 66 steps on how to clean a room manual. And that was my epiphany, so I would say the first place to start is to do required reading. Read the checklist manifesto, read the get things done, read the four-hour work week. And then look at what is the first area you want to standardize on. You're not going to standardize everything overnight. Uh you there's also a bunch of articles and webinars on SOP Culture that are free to for anybody to read and watch. I recommend you do them. Whether it's a Connectwise project board, whether it is how to hire um new text, whether it is uh proper client onboarding. Pick an area. What I recommend to our clients and anybody who will listen is, you want to get started, great, read here the three articles to read, watch these two webinars, cost you about five hours of your time. Do the basic reading first. Then, pick your favorite client. Or your most painful client, your choice. Document how you would set up their workstation for them from uh start to finish. Then do it for your second client. Then if I'm a new employee at your company, document how do I get access to my email? How do I set up email on my phone, on my desktop, my laptop? How do I set up my laptop, how do I get all my MSP tools on it? Uh, how do I get access to all my credentials, how do I get access to my training? You know, treat this as you would a new employee onboarding process, build into new employee onboarding process. Or next time you're doing something for your client, the one you love or the one you are terrified of. Great, bake some time into document and build the SOP. You're not going to get it right the first time. It took us about 20 tries to get it right for our first client. There's a lot of learning to be done, there's a lot of muscle building to be done. But once you do it and it becomes an ingrained practice, it becomes a habit. Then you'll start seeing ROI, we saw ROI about nine months into it. I have clients who've gotten ROI in less than 30 days. And one of the things that we could not have predicted. Is how greatly this has ring fenced our business, it's now become a castle wall that our competition keeps beating their head against and dying against. It's no secret our client. Every client shops you. Our clients have no shame in taking our proposal or invoices, getting, you know, giving with the next person knocking on their door. And some clients do it proactively, some clients do it reactively, they all do it. And I've had clients take our complete run books, which are given them every year and on demand, a complete PDF of all their assets, configurations, SOPs. That we built for them, that we use in our business and across all of our clients, here, take it. Uh, you paid for it. It's yours. They've given it to our competition who come knocking on their doors. And I've had more firms walk away from our clients because while they might be technically smarter or technically more gifted, they were not willing to come in and take over a client. With 2,000, 3,000 pages of documentation and maintain that. And the other benefit we found is our clients are hedge funds and construction firms. They're in regulated industries. They get audited. And previously, they were passing audits on operations, financial management, everything else. But their audits on the IT department were terrible. And even the clients have been ours for a long time. You know, when we they were getting audited. Frankly, we were terrible at it. Now, an auditor comes in and says, we need to audit the IT department. Let's see your processes. Legal gives them the policy. IT processes, here you go, there's 2,000 pages. What would you like to start? How do you set up the workstation for the CEO? Here you go. How do you set up the workstation financial department? Here you go. What's allowed to the firewall? Here you go. Why are we blocking this particular website or this particular category? Here's the firewall setup SOPs, here's the Connectwise configuration and when the client approved us blocking this particular swath of the internet. And by using our tools intelligently, it makes our clients happier, makes our auditors happier. And lets us deliver a consistency of service that wasn't there just five years ago. I guess one of the other areas that people often struggle with is uh is the time commitment that it can take to build this stuff up. And we would certainly recognize that it's time well invested and that you get more time back by doing this. But it can be a bit intimidating to get started on this and uh how do you section out the time for people to be able to get started on this if you feel like you're constantly swamped, right? Um, great question and I I resisted doing this for years. Uh, the pain has to be high enough and I see that in our clients and in my friends and prospects. Lots of people go, I want SOP culture. And about 80% of them uh ask for refunds after 90 days or within 90 days and we give it to them. You know, okay, thank you, you're not using it, don't want you as a client. So why are 80% of the people going through the webinar, signing for the training, going through the training, paying for the training and then dropping off the wagon? Because their pain is high enough. If my pain wasn't high enough, if I wasn't terrified of losing my top three clients, and if I wasn't tired of getting humiliated at every single client meeting. Where they ragged about how terrible my people were at doing their jobs that they were being paid for and paid handsomely. I wouldn't have done it. And what we have found is business owners or service delivery managers whose pain threshold is high, but their pain is higher than their pain threshold. When they get invested in this emotionally, they find the time. Yes, you do have to make the time. But the sad part is, you're already paying for it. You're paying for it with all the truck rerolls. You're paying for it with all the negative comments. You're paying for it with the clients you're losing. You're paying for it with your text waste taking four hours to Google something when they could have spent five minutes looking at SOP and doing it. My team has stopped paying the Google tax. And there's several clients who've engaged us to bring SOP culture into their firms. And their employees have stopped paying the Google tax. You know, Google is free. No, it's not, it costs you two, three, four hours a day when you're sitting there Googling something. Google something the first time. But once you've solved it, why should your colleagues have to pay the tax over and over again? You know, productivity loss is unfortunately not one of those expenses you see on your tax returns or your gap filings. But productivity loss is a is something that steals 30% to 50% from each company every year. If one person is spending four hours Googling and you've got 10 people on your team. Do the math, you're paying one full salary a week in the Google tax. And SOP culture, when used correctly, reduces the Google tax by a large amount. And that's where productivity lies. My text today after two weeks on the job, do more work in a day correctly. Then we used to do as a company with the tech was two years in service four years ago. My level ones can do better work that my level twos and threes were doing four years ago. Because they don't have to have the in-depth knowledge to follow the recipe. So you have uh SOP Culture as a potential shortcut for people. At least they they still have to uh maintain the documentation and make it a part of their process and reform their culture. But at least to give them that step up and get started with with some portion of a run book. That that's sort of the advantage that your your product would offer them, right? We don't call it a shortcut, we call it a jump start or a rocket boost. Um, I just like shortcuts because I've yet to meet a shortcut that didn't cost me more. Shortcuts are really long and expensive. But if you're ready to, you know, if you're not ready for it, individually or as a company. Go to SOP Culture, read a couple of the articles, take your choice. You know, watch a couple of the webinars. If you want to do it for free and do it by yourself, go right ahead. I will keep doing those webinars and writing those articles. Because for me, this is a manifesto. I'm here to improve our culture as a country, as a society, as an industry. And by standardizing our services, we have a chance to deliver better service to our clients and make more money doing it. That's a win-win for everybody. Now, if you like all of that and you want to jump start, come sign up and be a client of ours, we'll train you, we'll train your team. And I am really good at getting really difficult employees to document the work. Because I've had some of those really difficult employees. And I still have them. And when they finally have that aha moment and they realize that the SOP that they wrote two, three, four weeks ago. Just saved them four hours of banging their head against the keyboard. They become converts. And once they once they become addicted to SOPs. They will never do things halfway and ever again. We've got employees and friends who have now done SOP culture in their personal lives. You know, one of my employees is volunteering at a local aviation museum. And he's bringing SOP culture with them, he's actually using our SOP culture philosophy to help this venerable institution. Document how they do their media demos, how they do uh the shows for the kids. And how they do shows for adults. And you know, so now people are bringing SOP culture out of IT into rest of their life. Because it just makes sense. Once you start following processes, it's hard to live an unprocessed life. So I know a lot of people out there would struggle with the the cultural change and motivating a tech to to make that change. Any any one or two pieces of advice that you would relate to people in in making that shift for people? And you're getting it across to them. And and drilling it down to for them to make that shift. Yeah. The first shift starts with the owner or the manager. If you're not buying into it, if you're just having your team do this without your buying into it, don't. Um, I started by writing my own SOPs. And since I'm the head of marketing for our firm, I wrote the first five marketing SOPs. Given to my marketing admin. Then I went to my text and guys, I'd like you to do this. They're like, oh, marketing is easy. Tech is complicated. Okay, fine. Since I was also doing tech service delivery on some critical platforms, Solaris, Linux and some Oracle databases. These things don't come up often, but there were a couple of systems I was maintaining because nobody else could. So next time I had to deal with them, I SOP'd them. And when I showed to my text, look, guys, it also applies to technology. Half my guys rebelled, half my guys signed on board. Some of my long-term employees I had to let go because they were not willing to play ball. But between then and when we started, I had a couple of interns, a couple of new hires. And I made him write SOPs from day one of their job. They had never lived in a world at Brainlink without SOPs. So when three, four, five people are doing it, then the one out two outliers. One finally saw the light and started doing it correctly. One kept rebelling, okay, three months later, he was he was working for somebody else. Let him ruin somebody else's profitability. Uh, the other thing is. So if you've bought into it, then budget the time. You know, our rule is when we do something for the first time, let's say, um, a phone setup. Okay, we know that right now we can set up a Android S uh Galaxy S7. In about 15 minutes. Let's say it's an hour on a ticket. But if we're getting in a Galaxy 8 or an iPhone 8 or something else, we know something's going to be something's going to be different. Budget 4X for the first time, if it's a one-hour ticket and it normally. Budget four hours for it. One hour for the work, three hours for writing the documentation. Second time you're doing the same thing, budget two hours for it. Third time budget an hour for it, by the fourth time, it should be costing you 0.25X or less. Now, there's some processes we've done, which we've not got that ROI on. Because we only do them once a year and by the time we do them next year, got to update them all over again. But 70% of our work is do it over and over and over again. If you're using the same firewall across all of your clients, fresh and write the VPN setup document. It'll cost you 5, 10, 15 hours or two hours. For the next client, copy and paste it, change the graphics and change the URL and to match the client. Might cost you an hour to do it. But the next 10 employees, you give them the same document. And so 70% of business is repeatable, 30% isn't, that's where the high profitability margins lie. Great. But the 70% tackle those. Excellent. All right, well, we're we're uh we're kind of up towards the end here. This has been uh really excellent. Any any uh bits of parting wisdom that you'd like to uh to provide for people? If you haven't read checklist manifesto, buy, borrow, read it today. It is a life-changing book, it applies not only to business, but to life as well. And when you get to a point where you've got a checklist and how you put your pants on in the morning, it's life is wonderful. The more the big thing, the big benefit of doing all of this process is it takes the cognitive tax. When you can give your people checklists and SOPs, you prevent them from burning out by thinking of things needlessly. Let them think the first time, let them think the second time, by the third or fourth time. Help them avoid burnout and SOPs and checklists are massively useful. In preventing employee burnout and and owner burnout. Awesome. Great stuff, Raj. Appreciate your time and uh the work that you're doing around SOPs and bringing that culture to the MSP industry. Thank you, Todd. Glad to be here and I look forward to seeing this online.