ERP119 - Rethinking vCIO: vCIO as a career

If I take my Corolla over to the Toyota dealership and get an oil change, right? I I get one set of experiences and one level of services. But I take my Lexus LS over to the Lexus dealership for an oil change, right? Yes, I I get the same basic service performed, but I get it surrounded by a whole other set of additional services and experiences. That obviously I'm paying for. Right? That's conceptually, that's exactly what we're talking about here. That you've got some clients that all they want is that Toyota Corolla oil change. And there are others, you know, that expect and are willing to pay for the Lexus experience. Welcome to Evolved Radio, where we explore the evolution of business and technology. I'm your host Todd Kane. Are you an MSP struggling to build a truly profitable account management or virtual CIO program? You're not alone. Every day I see managed service providers facing the same challenges. Account managers who aren't sure how to deliver real strategic value. VCOs who struggle to justify their role to clients. QBR meetings that feel much more like tech support reviews than strategic planning sessions. And the constant battle to scale these services across different client sizes. After working with hundreds of MSPs, I've developed a comprehensive program that helps to solve these exact challenges. So if you're interested, check out the program in my training library at training.evolvedmgmt.com. That's training.evolvedmgmt.com. For more info about my account management and VIO program. Welcome to another episode of the Evolved Radio podcast. Today we continue our series on rethinking the role of the VIO in MSPs. Today I'm joined by Jim Turella from VIO University to discuss the challenges and opportunities of the VIO role. We'll explore the importance of role clarity, client segmentation, and tips for distinguishing between your account managers and your VIOs. Jim shares valuable insights into the need for a strategic approach when targeting different client segments and how MSPs can create value with VIO services. Listen for more actionable strategies to refine your client interactions and elevate your services you provide. Jim, welcome to the Evolved Radio podcast. Hey, well, glad to be here. Thank you. Of course. So we're continuing our series uh that I kicked off with Louise, continued with Alex. And we're talking about are we doing VIO all wrong and kind of rethinking the VIO role? And uh, you know, the name of your guys's company is VIO University, so you might have something to say about this. Yeah. Absolutely. We uh, you're right. I mean, we on purpose we put it in the title of the company. And we believe very strongly that uh there is a very specific role out there and a very specific set of services that revolve around that clients are looking for and in a lot of cases we're not providing right now. Yeah, so maybe that's a good place to start. Is uh, you know, I I mentioned how, you know, VIO is a kind of a derided term in the industry, unfortunately. I really liked Alex's comment how uh Marney uh uh mentioned that we'll stop talking about VIO as soon as you guys stop Googling it, right? So. Uh, it's still a very prevalent term, it means it's meaningful in the industry. Um, what are your thoughts on sort of like the term VIO and, you know, maybe a bit about how, you know, it's been a polluted term because of sort of how it's used and misused in some cases? Like, what are your thoughts on on sort of that title as a whole? Yeah, well, no, like you said, there's a there's a very specific spot for it fit within the MSP and the services that are provided. And it is misused a lot. But I mean, you know, if we're really being honest, our our clients don't care what we call it. I mean, they're looking for, you know, somebody that they're able to trust and and work with and and really believe that they're going to get the results that they're looking for. I mean, at the end of the day, that's that's what it's all about. Right? I mean, I I personally working when I was in the VCR role, I mean, I never had a problem explaining VCI to my clients. simply, you know, well Todd, you know, you work with our help desk for support. Right? You see our our field engineers running around and, you know, fixing things and installing things. Uh, you know, as your VIO, it's my job to understand your business and work with you and really understand what your goals are and what you're trying to accomplish. And, you know, we're going to work collaboratively on, you know, technology strategy and developing road maps and a budget to accomplish those things. You know, I mean, in essence, you know, you know, I'm here to align technology strategy with your business and then help you execute on that. I mean that that's not that difficult of a talk track. But for a lot of MSPs, they really get sort of, you know, fluxed in the middle of that and it's it's doesn't have to be that complicated. Why does it get complicated, do you think? Like people kind of getting in their own way a little bit, what do you guys see as you're trying to bring people down this road? absolutely. I mean, I think the industry as a whole, maybe it's because we have a serious engineering background, but we really like to make things complex and create a lot of confusion where there doesn't have to be. I mean, a lot of these things really are self-inflicted wounds. Yeah. And until we, you know, until we kind of step back a little bit and, you know, stop doing that to ourselves, it's not going to get any better. But I mean, let's let's let's step back for one second, back when sort of, you know, VIO first was coined. Right? I mean, what I see a lot of is that, you know, you've got the MSP owners or, you know, leader sitting around a conference table. And they're they're going, hey, this this VCI thing, that sounds pretty cool. I I think our clients would like it. And they agree on it and they get up and walk out of the conference room and they're walking on the hallway. And an engineer's coming, you know, the other direction down the hallway and they tap the guy in the shoulder and they say, your clients really like you, congratulations, you're a new VIO. And then they walk away. Right? So so so the poor engineer standing there. Going, hey, that's awesome, I think I just got a promotion. You know, wait, what what's a VIO? Yeah. Right? You know, and then they go out to the client and who's known them as the engineer and they said, hey, well, you know, guess what, I'm I'm your VIO and your trusted advisor now. And the client looks at him and says, well, what's a VIO and no, you're not my trusted advisor, you know, you haven't earned that yet. So the the, you know, the client's confused, the poor VIO's confused because he doesn't really know what to do. And, you know, then the client starts questioning the MSP and the MSP gets frustrated and that's where we get this, you know, hell is the VIO thing sucks. And they really don't take the next step of of really working to establish any kind of role clarity and they just say, yeah, it's easier, let's just call it account managers again. So then we get back in this vicious cycle and then they try to get it and they get, you know, they do the same things, they get the same results. So, Uh, you know, so let's step back here. So let's let's compare this to a CPA firm. I spent, I was a CIO at a top 100 CPA firm for 13 years. So let's compare that to a CPA firm. You typical firm, you've got the hierarchy is basically you start with like an associate account that does the basics, right? You've got a junior account, seniors, managers and the partners. That that's pretty much where you're going to see in any any firm. Right? So you you're a business owner. Right? Are your expectations different if you get an email from the partner at your CPA firm versus an email from the associate that's doing your monthly bookkeeping? Are your expectations different? Of course. Exactly. So I mean, they've established role clarity and you inherently know what to expect. Right? Why is it so difficult for the MSP industry to do the same thing? Well, maybe to that point, right? Like I I I think this is a good comparative because to your like your story about just tapping the the tech and saying you're a VIO go out and do great things. that that differentiation of that's a telling an associate to act like a partner in a meeting, right? Like that's just doesn't work, right? Like you you don't have the authority, you don't have the expertise or the experience, uh certainly some of the soft skills, right? Like that. Exactly. Is that so is that sort of the gap that we're creating? Like because I I see that where, you know, an unqualified person is trying to step into the role without the proper support. But also, you know, you also see the owners trying to step into these conversations. And I think a large part of it is not earning that trusted advisor and that respect of just launching straight into this is how vendor A told me to do this. Therefore, you know, I'm showing up and doing all of these things expecting the results that they told me, right? Right. No, absolutely. That that and that goes back to to that role clarity component that actually is one of the first things that we talk about when we start a workshop is that it's extremely important to establish that role clarity. But you have to first start with role clarity internally. Right? If everybody in your organization doesn't understand what the the key, especially client facing roles are. And how they fit in the organization and and what kinds of services they're responsible for and what they're delivering. Uh it's very hard if if you don't understand that internally, it's very hard to communicate that to the client and set the proper expectations. Right? One of the things that we really promote is, you know, you also need that role clarity for the sales team. Right? That they're out there, they're the first ones talking to the client and they really can go a long way and actually helping set those expectations. So of explaining what our VIO does and what kind of things you can expect when you meet with them and how they're here to help you. And if if as a client, if I'm told that up front and and again, I have those expectations coming in. Then having the VCI come in and introduce themselves and start talking about some of those things, it's not a foreign concept, I've been prepped for it. But again, we we sort of want to skip that step of. And it it's not an easy step. I mean, it actually takes you need to sit down, you need to think about it and you need to, you know, put it on paper and and document it and be able to share it and communicate it to the entire company. Of okay, guys, this is what the VIO does and this is what, you know, a number of other client facing roles do. We just don't want to take the time to do that. So let's let's maybe break this down a little bit. And I and I I I totally recognize I'm going to ask a question that the answer is absolutely it depends. But let's kind of run through a couple of these uh scenarios or generalities is maybe a better way to put it. Right? So you're a small MSP, maybe doing a million a year, you're largely still doing the account management, so probably you're going to be the VIO for some period of time. You know, then you go through Death Valley between one and five million, you crack five million. Like at that point, are you maybe having account managers doing the VIO function at that level and maybe doing a bit of your own with some of the high key clients? And what I'm looking for is like, how do people think about this role and whether or not and how they should be delegating it in the future. Or just hanging on to it as this is sort of the pinnacle thing of what you do as a principle in a in a consulting organization? Well, well, first, you definitely as your organization is growing and maturing, you definitely need to split it out and you need to bring in somebody to perform the VIO role. Trying to do it all yourself just doesn't scale. I mean, it it doesn't work long term. Right? You know, you can only take it so far and also spend the appropriate amount of time, you know, working on your business as opposed to in it. So that that's kind of a requirement of you have to have an expectation that you're you're building people and and you're grooming them to step into that role as you step out. So, I mean, that that's a key piece. But there's the set of services and again, like I said earlier that we don't necessarily care what the title is. Uh, I mean, we like VIO. But I mean, at the end of the day, I mean, there's there's a set of services that you're either contractually or morally obligated to deliver to your clients. And our focus is really on delivering those services and delivering them well and and you giving the tools and tactics of how to do that. Um whether again, organizationally you decide to call your VIOs, you want to stick with account managers or you call them, you know, we we see. 87 different terms for the same role. that doesn't matter as much to us as what you're delivering and how you're delivering it and giving the client the services that they, you know, they desire is is really the the key piece of this. So I'll I'll maybe dig a little deeper here. Because like this is this is a point that I'm I'm like in my head I kind of debate and I certainly see confusion about this in MSPs. Is at some point you're going to have account managers, right? Like kind of certainly around sort of that five million is where this starts to probably make a lot of sense. Maybe small lower than that if you've got some complex needs. But there is sort of a distinction probably between what an AM does and someone who's trying to provide VIO services. And as you scale like VIO looks very different, right? But around sort of that that mid-market stage. Like is it practical to have the AMs doing VIO or do you want to look for someone who's doing the VIO and supporting the AMs? You start the the progression really is as you started smaller organization like you're talking about, we tend to see starting with AMs. And then you get to the point where you need to separate it and truly establish VIOs because you, one your organization has grown, but your clients are also getting larger and the demands are changing and the expectations are changing. So in the AMs, whether you call them account managers, TMs, whatever, I mean, they're they're you will always have and this sort of leads to the client segmentation conversation, but. You're always going to have a a portion of your customer base kind of let's just say kind of at the lower end that is perfect for an account manager or a TM and and they're the primary focus. Right? I mean, as as long as you've got a client that is happy with your services, you know, isn't the pain in the butt and pays the bills on time and you've got people to service it, what's wrong with keeping them? So you're going to have that segment, but as you grow and you get larger clients, like I said, those expectations change, you definitely want to build out a a true VIO service. And like I said, if you this is more of that religious debate, if you're going to call it VIO or something else. Uh, I don't care, but our preference is you call VIO because I think as an industry, just like the accountants and the different levels, it benefits us as a whole to establish the expectation and the levels of what those expectations are. So let's call them VIOs and get it over with. So, yes, there you're you're building a more experienced experienced role with. uh preferably at least a little bit of technical background, but also a lot of, you know, a lot of people skills, business acumen that can walk in. And speak to, you know, the business owner or go and present to a board without complete, you know, brain lock up. Uh and and provide that, you know, the ability to talk through it, explain that connection and and and then alignment of here's what the technology is and here at a high level is what it does. But more importantly, here's how it ties back to and is going to help you deliver those, you know, goals and outcomes that you're looking for. Yeah. Okay. So let's uh yeah, let's dive into segmentation. Because this is a big thing that I think is sorely missing even in larger MSPs. Like they tend to just look at all of their customers the same and all the things that they do. Uh but certainly from an account management standpoint and definitely in a VIO framework, this makes no sense, right? So. Uh what what's what's sort of your like with uh I'll let you just sort of rip on on account segmentation, like how should you do this, how should you think about it? Right. Uh well, before I kind of get into that, let me back up and just give you an analogy that I was I gave somebody else the other day. Not too far from here, there's a Toyota dealership on one side of the street and the Lexus dealership on the other side of the street, you know, owned by the same guy. If I take my Corolla over to the Toyota dealership and get an oil change, right? I I get one set of experiences and and one level of services. But I take my Lexus LS over to the Lexus dealership for an oil change, right? Yes, I I get the same basic service performed, but I get it surrounded by a whole other set of additional services and experiences. That obviously I'm paying for. Right? That's conceptually, that's exactly what we're talking about here. That you've got some clients that all they want is that Toyota Corolla oil change. And there are others, you know, that expect and are willing to pay for the Lexus experience. So when you start getting into segmentation, Chris, Ryan and I, my my partner, we spent a fair amount of time really kind of talking through this concept and and some of the segmentation models that are out there. And we said, well, okay, how do how do we really take this to kind of version 2.0? And so so we created this this matrix that really kind of walks people through and gives you multiple sort of points to map client out at and and start to point out the differentiation. As well as to highlight kind of where they're at, but then you can also use it to identify where you want to take them, let's say over the next year. And then that that really is does a good job of helping generate conversation even internally as far as well, what are we going to what do we actually have to do to move them from here up to where we want them to be? Yeah. And we've we've even seen clients, you know, actually starting to use that and show it to clients and sell them and ask them to self-identify, where would you like to be on here? It's really pretty cool. But I mean, things that you need to look at are, you know, what what's their overall attitude toward technology? You know, you've got some guys again on that lower left, it's like, well, it's a necessary evil, I just absolutely have to have it, but I really if I could get away without it, I don't want it. Right? And then you kind of go up and people start to treat it as as a utility and it's sort of expected, but again, it's not that high, you know, it's not that important, but when I plug something in the wall, I expect it to work. And you continue to move up, you know, until you get to a point where, you know, we're using it technology as a strategic component of our business. And you continue to go up even further sort of starting now to sort of bump into the fractional space. Where they're actually looking, you know, at having somebody like at an executive level, you know, on the executive team and whether it's it's like a fractional employee or somebody full-time, but they've got, you know, eight technology spot on the leadership team. Right? So that that's one component. Another component to look at is essentially if you flip it, the same thing, uh similar attitudes from a security standpoint. I mean, because compliance and security are so important these days. That you need to have the similar uh similar approach. And a lot of times what you'll find is that the attitude toward technology and the attitude towards the security really are different. And that that again can generate some excellent conversations with the client and and help identify areas that you need to to work with them on. Yeah. Um, other areas to look at are. I mean, even, you know, slightly more esoteric things, but what are they looking for from you, either as the VIO or from the organization? Right? Do they just want somebody that's there to make sure that the, you know, antivirus is antivirus and they get the report of what it's doing each month? And if they have another sort of product related question they can ask you? Or, you know, kind of scaling that all the way up to are they looking you at that trusted advisor? And instead of getting that phone call at uh, you know, oh, by the way, yesterday we just bought a company and we need to integrate it by Tuesday. Uh, you know, instead of that phone call, you know, if you really are a trusted advisor, one of the signs are, you get the phone call and it says. You know, hey Todd, we're we're looking at uh buying a company, you know, we're we're just starting to do diligence, but I want to give you a heads up. You know, by the way, it's in Florida and it's got about 50 people, uh start giving some thought to how we, you know, how we might connect this. And as I learn a little bit more, I'll be in touch and we can start some actual due diligence on it, maybe we'll even have you get on there and take a look at it. Right? Those are two completely different conversations. Yeah, 100%. And so there's a scale there. And then one of the other ones that's more of a a financial related scale that we like is basically what kind of planning and budgeting do they have? And is it, you know, essentially we've got nothing? Or, you know, kind of all the way up of we've got a a full-fledged budgeting strategic planning that uh we're looking for, you know, for your organization to bring the technology component to that. Yeah. So, if if you look at sort of all of those pieces and start to map those things out, it gives you a really good sense of. You know, sort of where the client's at and what what the opportunities are. As well as having really good discussions of, you know, where they want to go and how you move them up to that. Yeah. And then just the recognition that the the level of engagement at each of those tiers is appropriate, but very, very different based on on those needs, right? Absolutely. Yeah. Right. Absolutely. I had an interesting conversation with uh with a with a client this week, uh uh shout out to Scott, hey Scott, if you're listening. We were talking about sort of like he's had a a tremendous amount of success in implementing TBRs. This is something we were working on to get rolling in his business and and formalize this and it's gone really, really well. He's dramatically increased his MRR, he's brought in a ton of NRR as a result of that. But of course, like when you do that first sort of pass on a good TBR with your clients, it produces a ton of fruit. But then when you come back to it, it doesn't tend to generate as much because you've kind of cleared the deck of a lot of things that were kind of latent and and ready to go basically. We were having this conversation like basically saying like that's not inherently a problem, right? Because a lot of what goes into this after the fact is going to be relationship management and you basically tune down, you're not having hour long conversations anymore. You're potentially having kind of 15, 20 minute conversations checking in, it's more relationship health. Uh but we were talking about some ideas of how do you continue to sort of amp up that conversation? Like they've consumed all of my stack, you know, I've got them on a on a hardware refresh plan, the ticket noise has gone down, they love us as a as a partner. Like where do you go from there, right? Like we talked a bit about sort of business analysis and trying to figure out some of their workflows. But like, what do you suggest to people like when you feel like you've kind of tapped out a client, how do you dig a little deeper and scratch below the surface? I guess there's a couple of levels to that. The first one is that yes, you definitely can kind of like you said, clear the decks and sort of take care of all the low hanging fruit. But I I've yet to see an MSP that's not constantly changing something or adding something to the, you know, like to the stack that belongs in that road map conversation. So, you know, there's always something changing like that that needs to be there that needs to be introducing them to it ahead of time. And telling that story of here's where we're taking you and here's what, oh, by the way, you know, six months from now, we need to change this piece because, you know, we found a a better widget and uh, you know, the old one's not working as well, what whatever the storyline is. But the the part that I think you you kind of got skipped in at least your description from my perspective is that much deeper business conversation. And really driving into that and and truly understanding what the goals of the business are. And identifying what are the desired outcomes that are the actual measurable of, you know, how they're going to measure whether or not they're successful in hitting those goals. From there, it's once you identify those and you look at, well, what are the major technology initiatives that we're going to provide. Or we're going to work with you to provide that support all of those outcomes and goals. Once you've identified those initiatives, then it's it's kind of open season of of additional projects and things that you can be doing. To support and and really help drive those those business outcomes and and goals. It's but those things are what drive let let's say more of the the project revenue or sort of the non-standard services. And that's where, you know, some MSPs really may need to spend some time, you know, kind of skilling up a little bit more to that. It's not just the, you know, the firewall and the laptop replacement and again, the kind of business what what's very quickly becoming the business as usual. Right? You know, it's it's maybe better project management to assist them with rolling out a new MRP. Where, you know, hey, you don't have the project management skills yourselves, but we've got a project manager that for X fee could basically step in and help you manage this project. Or like you mentioned a little bit of like the, you know, sort of business optimization or or, you know, business process improvement. There are a lot of other areas that I mean, there there's always something that you can be looking at and, you know, stepping back and looking at. Like for example, a lot of our clients that are uh affiliated or or uh, you know, directly connected with like office equipment dealers. Right? They're at a space where they've spent, you know, sometimes the entire life of the the larger firm. Dealing with, you know, business process and helping automate, you know, like paper and workflow and document, you know, document management and those kinds of things. MSPs in that space have a little bit easier time because they've got some expertise that they can leverage. To have those conversations or, hey, I've got a guy on the, you know, kind of on the copier side that would be happy to come in and tell you what document management, how we set it up. So that, you know, you press the button on the scanner and it shoots it right into the document management system and it shows up in the APQ and, you know, all of those kinds of things. But there's nothing saying that, you know, a regular MSP can't start doing those kinds of things and and at least understanding it. Even if they don't have the expertise about whatever the copier is, it's identifying that and and looping in, you know, the copier vendor and saying, hey, this is what we want to accomplish, how do we do it? But you're, you know, as the VCI, you're driving that conversation. Right. Well, what about some of the sort of future technologies? It's interesting because like I am a person, I love technology, I love playing with stuff, I've been tinkering with AI since GPT got released and, you know, now I'm like running models locally and stuff like that. So I like I love this stuff, but I'm very still very skeptical of like its real world business applications, certainly within the next few years. And and like I get the idea that AI consulting could absolutely be a thing. But as I talk to people about this in the industry, there's very wide opinions on like some people just say, oh, that's not a thing, like like we're still just trying to get cloud done, right? Uh so but yet I've also run into some MSPs and uh in other parts of the world where they're like, yeah, like we've got three guys just working on AI projects with clients. So it definitely seems to be a thing, but it definitely doesn't seem to be evenly distributed. The work that you guys are doing, how much are you seeing AI show up as an opportunity for people to focus on, is that something that you guys talk about? Oh, absolutely. We we actually have a uh an entire unit in the workshop that we we talk about this and sort of where it fits with the VIO. But as kind of as we start that conversation, first question we ask is, okay, guys, what what are you seeing out there, right? How many how many clients do you have that are actually asking for it, how many do you see that are doing things with it, right? just just to sort of start off the conversation. And to be honest with you, it wasn't until just this last workshop that we did in January that we actually had a number of people raise their hand and say, yeah, yeah, we actively are having people say we want to do things with it. Before that, it would be kind of a smattering of, yeah, we got some people that ask about it or but but nobody's really taking it seriously or they're trying to kind of just figure out the basics of it. So it it's I I'm seeing that uh, you know, interest accelerate is kind of where I'm at there. But. Right now, I mean, our our stance is basically that the VIO right now, first if you step back to kind of what, you know, 5,000 feet. In all reality, we've been through this cycle before. Whether it's, you know, ERP or BI or or whatever, anybody that's been involved in technology for a little while, I mean, you've been through the cycle before of the the next, you know, sort of the next shiny thing. Yeah. The hype cycle, right? Yeah. Right. Go through the hype cycle. And. So if you put it in that context, what we're seeing is the important things for a VIO right now are really one, they need to be able to have a solid conversation and understanding about it. Right? They need to be able to talk about it and they, you know, preferably we recommend, you know, you should be able to as you're talking to the client about it, you want to know what, you know, all of the names are, you want to know some of the features, you you preferably want to be able to tell a story about, you know, hey, this is how we're using it internally or we're we're testing this and this is the results we're getting or I've got another client that's that's starting to experiment with using it for this and this this is this is what they're seeing. So, I mean, and that starts to, you know, that goes a long way just to establishing credibility as a VIO that you're actually paying attention to, you know, technology and just what's going on overall. As well as the fact that, you know, they start to think about your organization as a place to go to talk about these things. So you need that conversational understanding. The the second piece of this and and this is where we see MSPs starting to get more interest, but still there's a long way to go. Is that we firmly believe that the proper thing to do is that you really need to go through some sort of assessment. And and kind of a readiness assessment of what what state is the organization in and how much work is required to get ready for AI. Just like anything else. before that, right? I mean, if like I said, I mentioned the ERP before, well, if you put in a new ERP system and you feed it a bunch of the crap data from your old one. Right? The new one's not going to operate any better than the old one. Right? You you need to go through and you need to do a cleanup and data validation and get, you know, get ready for it, there's all kinds of things that need to go sort of prep stages before you go with it, right? The same thing with, you know, even like a a SharePoint migration, well, I can take your server and all those drives that people just dump stuff on and I can throw it up in a SharePoint. But at the end of the day, it's going to look just like it's going to look the same mess that you've got now and it's not going to help you find things and and all of that. So, AI is just like that. Right? But it's exponentially so. The fact that hey, this thing is like intelligent and if if you don't put some guide rails on it, it's just going to go and suck up everything it can see what your organization. And start spitting out, you know, the proverbial, the receptionist can sit there and and basically ask, you know, co-pilot what the CEO salary is and if you haven't locked it down, right? It's going to tell her. Yeah. Uh, you know, there's there's all of those pieces. So a a readiness assessment to really understand what the status of the organization is and identify all the things that need to happen before that. From, you know, basic data governance to security to, you know, data quality. Security permissions, all of those things. And the cool thing is is that one, the readiness assessment, if you do it right, I mean, that's a billable engagement for you. And all of the things that come out of it and odds are right now, you're going to in every one of those things that I just ticked off, you know, you're going to end up having some sort of project or task coming out of that, arguably all of those things are billable as well. Yeah. So it it's, you know, sort of this self-fulfilling prophecy if you will, a little bit that you you you start to sell these things, you're just you get the flywheel going and it just generates all kinds of additional things. But all of these things are even before you get to the point of turning on AI. Right. Then then once you get the AI, then it's a whole another set of of potential projects and things like that as well. So you mentioned uh, you know, some of this being billable. One of the things I find fascinating about the VIO as a role and its function in the industry is is when it originally came out is it was an entirely a billable exercise, right? Like this was you you had your MSA and then you had your VIO contract. And you know, those those VIO contracts were $2,500, $3,500 and more. And that doesn't tend to happen as much anymore, partly because we've kind of mixed together the VIO function and the AM function and just sort of mashed it into the MSA. What are you guys seeing or what are you recommending on uh sort of like demarc points of when the VIO should be a billable engagement? We definitely are promoting the idea and and we see as just like as you said, as the VIO role matures and as you mature with your organization. And really start to truly define what services you're bringing to the table. And you truly start bringing a strategic planning conversation and you know, building solid road maps that out into the future and delivering a solid budget. You start doing some of those true true deliverables that they see value in. That's when it's time to start charging. I mean, a lot of a lot of MSPs are are are covering the cost of VIO in some form or fashion. Uh, you know, bearing bearing the charge in there, but a lot of times it's not separated. We're shifting to a mode of that you should be separating it and it should be a separate line item that they see so that they see additional value in it. Instead of, oh, hey, we're throwing the VIO in, uh, you know, when you're talking about a contract renewal or something like that, well, that kind of discounts and it doesn't send the right message to the client that this is something I should value. It's like, oh, yeah, they just threw it in kind of like floor mats when buying a car. Uh it's like, yeah, it's there, but okay, I'll use it if I, you know, if I think about it. As opposed to, hey, I'm paying for this, right? I I want to I want to get some value out of it. So, You know, on the low end, I guess right now, I I see that in all reality, probably the TM function, especially dealing with that smaller client base. You know, that's probably always going to be just just baked into the contract. Right? There's really no need to call it out because they're doing that lower level services. But very quickly as you shift up the VIO and you start having those conversations about VIO. And even like I said, talking about and showing them let's say let's say our our uh uh segmentation and saying, you know, hey, where do you want to be in this, right? And they start identifying that they want to move, you know, up to the right, that's the perfect time to say, hey, we we've got people to help you do that and we got these great VIOs, right? But there is an additional charge for that and and bring it out and say and these are the services you're getting. Right. I like that. Back to that, that's helping establish that role clarity as well. But you have to identify it and have that ready to go first hand. But I I think the idea of having them self-select into that category is excellent, right? Because it it's it's them signaling like I'm I I want to leverage technology. So like let's have this conversation, let's step it up a bit, right? I think that ability to have a more mature conversation at that level, rather than sort of like trying to cajole them into. You know, come along, like let's go to these meetings, you're going to have a great time, I'm going to you know, going to provide some real value for you guys. Like, I don't know. Like, can you just show me the report? Yeah. Yeah. No, I I uh. That that's a key piece of this. And and we actually talk through, you know, going to detail on specific strategies of getting exact keeping them there. That that that's important and there there is actual a, you know, scientific research of best ways to approach that and especially keeping them in uh engaged in the meeting. There's interesting research brand that of of when to hit them with like the important information, etc. So. But yeah, yes, absolutely. I mean, if you look at it. Nobody ever wants to go backwards. So if I actually present a client with that, you know, with that segmentation grid and say, well, here's where you are now, right? Do do you agree this is where you're at, right? And no, nobody's going to want to go backwards. They always want to go up to the right and improve. So I mean, they're helping you define, you know, define that on the fly and sort of self-defining it and it just get again, gives you a great opportunity. To say, well, okay, so if you're here and you want to go to here, what do we have to do to get there and, you know, here are six things from our perspective that need to happen for you to get up to that level. And I'm sure there are other things even within your organization, again, bringing it back to the business conversation about them. You know, what what are things you're trying to accomplish and let's talk about, I've got some ideas of how we can help you with, you know, a couple of them that I've already were, but I'd really like to hear you talk about them. Yeah. Excellent. This has been great, Jim. I appreciate your insights. Super helpful. Uh, anything we haven't touched on, you want to table before before we wrap up here? No, I I think. We're we're kind of at an inflection point in the industry. I I I really believe that. I I'm seeing uh I'm kind of seeing it happen before our eyes as we're working with all these people coming through our workshops and and on the consulting side. That we're going to have we're going to have a group that kind of elect to be the Toyota dealer and they're happy doing those, you know, Corolla oil changes. And there's a whole other set that are really primed and and see significant opportunity and upside of continuing to grow and mature and they're, you know, they're the guys that want to be the Lexus dealer. And and really continue to add services and and upscale, you know, upscale the people and really drive things into the future. And I really interesting conversations about with with a few MSPs about, you know, having visions of really kind of taking on sort of that mid-tier uh like consulting, you know, national consulting firms. That, you know, like the the guys doing ERPs and the big AI implementations and and those things that they see, you know, opportunity of starting to to pull, you know, clients from there. So you have those conversations and you have kind of faith that, okay, you know, we really are can be headed in the right direction. Yeah. So when that happens, like I said, that that's really interesting. The sort of the split between, you know, kind of further identifying TM and what's really VIO and what are our VIO services going to be and really calling those out and defining those roles, that that those are key things. And that that's really I think the next step so that we can get past this what what's a VIO and why is it, you know, everybody's fractional. I mean, let's just get past those conversations and and define it and and move on. Uh because at the end of the day, the client client really doesn't care what all of this stuff that we get all up tight about. Um they're just like, are you guys delivering what I want you to deliver? Right? And you're going to be strategy. Yeah. So. That's great. That's like an excellent summary of the opportunity being presented in the industry. So, yeah, it's it's great. Awesome. Thanks, Jim. Hey, I enjoyed it very much.