AI, Accounting, and MSPs - ERP143

This file was generated by Descript MSPs and accounting firms have a lot of shared DNA. My guest today thinks that accounting is paving the way for MSPs and AI adoption. Peter McCarrell has spent over 30 years in public accounting and has been helping other firms' owners rethink how they price and deliver their work as AI takes over the routine stuff. His view is that accounting is the canary in the coal mine for professional services with MSPs next in line. Today, we're looking at what's already happening in his industry and what MSP owners can learn from it before it reaches them. Peter, welcome to the Evolved Radio podcast. Thank you so much. It's good to be here Excellent. So, uh, I like the description that you kind of noted for me here is that, uh, accountants are the canary in the coal mine for pro- professional services. I think this is a really apt description of this. Do you wanna give us a reading from the future on the impacts of AI on prefer- professional services? Yeah. So I wanna nuance this, um, in a particular way. Uh, think MSP providers are probably ahead of accountants when it comes to AI. You guys are the IT specialists. You've been all over this for, you know, much earlier. Most accountants are still slow to change. Uh, the area where I think we might be the canary in the coal mine is on the price compression front. And I think, you know, lawyers haven't felt this yet. In fact, I was just working with a couple lawyers yesterday. Um, you know, they aren't seeing the kinds of things that accountants are now starting to see, um, that are, uh, is putting pressure on pricing. Um, and I suspect that, you know, MSPs, you know, are better at using the technology and deploying the technology, but the compression hasn't quite hit them yet. That's I think you'd be surprised actually. I've been ranting about this in the industry, uh, for a while now. Not to say that you, that you guys are necessarily ahead of them on implementation per se, but, uh, I, I think the industry is strangely lacking in the sort of ROI cases for AI. There's a lot of use cases, I think, internally in very specific cases, but, uh, I think, um, the, the utilization of AI certainly for their customers has, has been strangely lagging. Ok so that, that's been a, a fascination of mine as well. Um, you know, I, I suppose, I think people could maybe assume where some of this stuff shows up for you guys, right? Like, uh, reconciliation, um, you know, some of the bookkeeping basics, like maybe extrapolate, uh, a bit out on what does AI play a role in for modern accounting and how is that creating price compression? Yeah. let's talk about the technicalities first. Like where is AI actually changing the work we do? And I would say that up until now, it hasn't. We… One of the differences between accountants and, and, you know, some other knowledge workers is that we work very much inside tools. We don't just use the tools, the tools are the work. QuickBooks, Xero, you know, the accounting platforms. And they have been, um, let's say, on a shaky start in terms of implementing AI. And w- yeah, it's really only been the last few months where we've started to see these tools really start to out the kinks of how does AI work inside the product. We're seeing a lot around the edges of the product in terms of other tools that we might use, tax, data gathering tools, um, you know, uh, other automation tools that plug into the accounting systems. They have actually been much more, more aggressive in, in implementing AI. But not every accountant is going to pay extra for an outside tool to do some of that work. so, so I would say this, this is where I think, you know, the accounting industry as a whole is still a little behind because we are very reliant on a very small number of vendors work out what they want to do with AI before we can get our hands on it in the, in the, the, the day-to-day, you know, most of what we do, you know, is bookkeeping or accounting. Now, that's not to say there's not lots of opportunity for AI. I call… I have this phrase called AI and the gaps, the gaps between these systems and, and now that's expanding with MCPs and things like that, where now you can now automate between systems. Okay? So that's all starting to develop. But, you know, just in terms of our core use, today, we're just starting to s- to scratch the surface of how does AI get involved in the accounting process, and the first place that it gets involved within the tools is in that coding and reconciliation process. Now, where will we be 12 months from now? I'm very convinced that we will be in a position where, if we've enabled it, AI sh- will be able to code at least 80% of your transactions inside your accounting ledgers, and do so with an adequate, maybe not ideal, but an adequate level of accuracy. Still going to need someone to monitor it, check it, and do the things that it can't work out. There'll still be lots of that. Uh, but it's going to take a lot of the transactional work down and, and my, my forecast is that bookkeepers are going to become quality control managers, not transaction processors I think there's a, a just a very strong parallel between this and a help desk, right? So, triage process, uh, all of these things will be automated, but there's still a very heavy QA process. I'm curious, like, uh, because accounting maybe feels higher risk and, you know, granted the stuff that you're doing is not, uh, it's not like it will get dramatically missed or cause massive issues. It could if it's really wrong a lot of the time, but I don't suspect that's gonna be the case. Like, the LLMs are very good now, and I think they'll be quite capable of this. But, uh, I think psychologically people may be a little more wary about AI playing with their books than they are managing a support ticket. Do you think there's gonna be internal resistance to this in the industry or a resistance from people saying like, "Oh, no, no, no, I don't want you having AI playing with my, my accounting"? Uh, yes, there will be resistance. I think the resistance, funnily enough, is actually stronger inside the industry than it will be from our clients. Um, it's stronger for inside the industry because let's be honest, the accounting industry is an aging industry. You know, people like me, you know, gray hair, um, who've been in this industry for 40 years, uh, you know, are slow to change. Now, I, I've met plenty of accountants older than me who are gung ho on this stuff, so this… I'm not trying to, to stereotype anybody here. But as a whole, we tend to be… We're conservative, we don't change fast, and we don't adopt technology fast. You know, the, the whole conversation around cloud technology. I mean, it took 10 years for cloud adoption to have become normal, it's only because, you know, companies like Intuit finally said, "You know what? We're gonna stop supporting QuickBooks Desktop." They… The reason they held on so long is because so many accountants did not want to move. That tells you something about the way our, our, our industry works. We are Yeah, even, adopters e- even in our industry, we saw a lot of this, that there was accountants that refused to use newer versions, and like certain clients, they would use a specific version. Yes. the, the really old guard. Yeah, so the, the, the change does not come quickly Absolutely. And look, to be honest here, part of it is, you know, accountants have a, have a reputation, which is well earned, for being cheap buggers, okay? And we want to save money on everything we do. Well, here's the secret that you, you guys might not know. QuickBooks Desktop, you didn't have to pay for every single license. You were able to run a number of clients. You paid for the software, and you could create, in some cases, as many files as you wanted. In later years, they started to limit that. Um, of course, the moment you move to cloud, every client pays. Nothing comes for free. Well, if you're, if you're a cheap accountant and you, and you want to still run, you know, 50 clients for the price of five, uh, what are you gonna do? You're not gonna move to the cloud, you know? And it, it finally took 10, 10 years, 10 plus years for the, for the, the industry to say, "Yeah, I think those days are over. We, we, we have to change the model." Okay? Now, AI's gonna move faster than that, way faster than that. Um, but there are still gonna be accountants that don't want to make the change. And I remember my dad, I started… My first accounting job was with my dad's firm back in New Zealand and, you know, he sold his practice. They asked him to stay on to help with client transition and things like that. Uh, but the new owners, they were younger, they wanted new software technologies, and my dad wasn't a technophobe at all, but, you know, the pace of change was just too high and he actually decided to step out earlier than his contract allowed, you know, him to. He had the right to do it, but they wanted him to stay on for two years, and he ended up saying, "I just can't handle all this change. I think my clients are happy with the transition. I'm gonna step out now." We saw this happen in COVID. A lot of accountants shut their doors and never came back. And AI is gonna be a bit of a trigger here as more and more accountants get to the point of saying, "I can't keep up, and I don't want to keep up. I don't want to learn a new technology at this stage of my career." So I guess that creates an opportunity. Again, like there's so many parallels, uh, with the IT industry, like the, you know, aging population, bit of a, an opportunity being created for, uh, for new businesses. And we're seeing a bit of a rise, sort of the early edge, I think, in, in the MSP industry of like a native AI-based, uh, MSP. Um, you know, the, like I, like I said, I've joked about the MSP industry being, you know, unusually slow to adopt and, and, uh, get on top of this, this trend, but there are the people that are just, you know, they, they're starting a new MSP because they see the opportunity of being able to leverage these things or, uh, consulting in a n- in a more of an AI native way. I suppose that's sort of a similar parallel for your guys' industry that, uh, you know, this, it's a bit of a sea change, I suppose, that new businesses will start as a result and kind of run up the middle, right? Absolutely. Well, that leads me to the, uh, the four pricing changes. Now, you alluded to this earlier. Um, the four, I call it the squeeze. Um, the first one might not apply to MSPs. So the first pricing squeeze is that the, uh, the, the tools that we use day-to-day, the QuickBooks, the Xeros, the Sages, um, they are building in AI tools that our clients can now use, that the consumer or the business owner can now use. So all the things that we ask for for our efficiency have c- are coming, have come, and they're also being offered to the business owner. And the logical question here is, well, if I, if I'm getting this as part of my software subscription, which most accountants pass that charge directly on to their clients, uh, or the client pays directly, if I'm getting that as part of my software subscription, what am I paying you for? So that's one area of, of the squeeze, is that the, the tools that make us efficient are now accessible by our clients, and they question the value of what they're paying for. next part of the squeeze i- are the new, uh, tools that are coming in AI native. So in, in the, uh, accounting world, we've got QuickBooks, Xero, and Sage. They are the three big, uh, native products or, uh, legacy products. I call them legacy products now. Um, not applying to us here in Canada, but in the US, which is most of your audience, uh, Digits, Kick, Puzzle are now the up-and-coming software products. Now, you may have never I don't think I've ever heard of those but they are new AI native ledgers, and they're doing really great things. They're going well beyond just auto-coding a transaction or reconciling the bank account. They're actually now putting tools in that deal with reconciling clearing accounts and, you know, all the other stuff that an accountant has to do that is beyond basic coding, which of course most business owners forget about because to them, once you've coded something, it's finished, and the accountant knows that that's not true. There's a lot more work that happens downstream from that. But these AI native tools are building from the ground up. They have no technology debt. They can move incredibly fast because they're building in an agentic way an agentic age. Whereas these legacy platforms, they, they can't build in an agentic way. Their, their technology debt is too high. They are, they are trying to convert their code and their systems into something that will work like that, but these products are massive. That, that takes time. So that's the second compression, is that there are these new offerings coming out and, you know, Digits, for example, will offer to not just be your ledger, but close your books 60 bucks a month. Cheaper than QuickBooks will, will do it And so you have to ask that, is, is that a competitive threat to an accountant? Absolutely. People are considering changing services or saving money, and they hear the story about this new platform that'll do it for free or do it for a lower cost. They go, "Yeah, I'll give that a try." Usually they end up coming back, you know, because it's not all they thought it was gonna be. They still need the tax work done. These tools won't do the tax work necessarily, at least not yet. Um, you know, so there's still sometimes there's room for an accountant, but, you know, it changes the relationship. The, the, the third pricing squeeze is perception. This is going to affect MSPs. Um, in fact, every knowledge worker. The perce- And, and one of the things I say is that perception is reality. People make decisions based on, opinion, on feelings and perception more than they do on facts. And you could argue with them from a rational basis as to why their opinion is wrong, they will still make their decision based on their opinion and perception. Okay? It's, it's very hard to convince somebody using logic when they've made up their mind using emotional perception. Just a basic psychological principle. So what's happening in the whole industry, uh, and, and, uh, is that people perceive that the cost to do these things is coming down. Well, it's now cheaper because of AI. What do you mean you want to put my price up? Okay? I had this conversation yesterday with a client. Um, you know, their perception is that all the stuff can now be done on a $20 a month subscription. Now, you and I know that that's not true, not entirely, but it's partially true. stuff could be done on a $20 a month subscription. Okay? And so the perception in the marketplace is that's what I need And so when my accountant or my bookkeeper says, "Yeah, we wanna do your work for $1,000 a month or, or $5,000 a year," we go, "Hang on a second. That doesn't translate to my $20 a month subscription." And of course, it's not just the $20 a month, that's, that, that's, that's $20 a month that covers not just what you do, but everything else I do. You know? And even if that was $200 a month, that perce- that perception gap is causing price compression. There's a classic story in the accounting industry. I think it was KPMG and EY, I forget which way around the, the, the words go. But, uh, K- uh, E- Ernst & Young, one of the big accounting firms, uh, the accounting firms have… All the big firms, they have a global practice, a global head office, and these global head offices get audited by one of the other big firms. Okay? So we're not talking about the US national practice or a local office, we're talking about the, the international head office. And so they are audited by KPMG. And so they went to KPMG and they said, "Uh, AI should be making the audit more efficient. We demand a price cut." Okay? This is inside the accounting industry. Okay? KPMG said, "Well, but we're not actually using AI, so we haven't got the efficiencies you're talking about. Um, you're really paying for the human expertise and the judgment and all this," yeah, all this kind of stuff, and they used all the rational logic. And EY said, "We don't care. Cut your price or we'll find a replacement." And KPMG ate a 14% price cut for nothing Just because Just the… Hmm Tired of fighting the MSP fires alone? The Ops Leader Pro group connects service delivery professionals who understand your daily challenges. From KPIs and workflows to career planning and team management, Ops Leader Pro has systems for you to use. Join operations leaders from successful MSPs who are sharing real solutions for managing client expectations, optimizing service delivery, and making your service delivery team as effective as possible. Ops Leader Pro, 'cause your service desk deserves more than just survival mode. Visit opsleader.co. That's O-P-S leader.co to apply to join the public community. Okay? So this is gonna-- this is happening, um, in the accounting space. People are starting to push back on price rises because their perception is this stuff is now free or cheap. They don't understand that the cost of implementing their technology is incredibly high, you know? And, and it's not a $20 a month subscription. In fact, I, I estimate that an average accounting firm will need to spend between $500 and $1,000 per month per employee Just on AI and AI-related tools. Okay? Now, is that still cheaper than… Is that gonna give them more efficiency? Yes, it will, but it's not free. And per- and the perception in the world is this is a marginal free benefit, is not true. And, and an accountant couldn't survive on a $20 a month subscription, not if they're really using it. So, so this is the challenge. That's price compression number three. And price compression number four, you alluded to this a s- a, a couple of minutes ago. Uh, are, are the rise of new vendors, new AI native vendors. People who say, "Not just… I'm not just writing software, but I'm gonna do everything. I'm gonna do your tax return. I'm gonna do, uh, your, your, your reporting and your advisory stuff, and I'm gonna come in and I'm gonna do it for a quarter of the cost of the last guy, and I'm gonna do it with AI." And it doesn't matter whether they can do that. All that matters is that they offer to do that. And we're seeing them come up. We're seeing these new AI-native accounting firms. You alluded to AI-native MSP providers, not just software, but providers, and they're automating the heck out of everything. Okay? Now, we had a story in the accounting world, you know, the last couple of years of a, of a, a product called Bench, and it started in Silicon Valley, actually moved to Vancouver. Um, and they, they were doing or offering, you know, bookkeeping. It was supposed to be automated, but it turns out they just had a whole bunch of people in the Philippines and India for 200 bucks a month. And they received billions of dollars of investment to create this new… And of course, this is all just, just before AI, okay? Um, and so, so they, they were offering to do all, to do the super cheap, you know, high throughput, uh, bookkeeping work for a super low price. They went bankrupt and gave their clients zero days notice that they closed Ja, dat was ugly Yep, their clients woke up one day and found out that their ledger was locked and they couldn't access it anymore. Okay? Terrible result. Burnt a whole bunch of goodwill in the industry. it proves the point that it doesn't matter whether they can deliver the service. only matters that they offer it, that price point now sticks, and every accountant was now competing with a $200 a month bookkeeping opportunity. Yep. So again, like the, the parallels exist here, right? That, um, like if, if you see this coming, like how are you planning your business and, you know, advising maybe other people in the industry in, in conferences and conversations? Uh, what do you do with this, right? Because I think there's some similarity in MSPs that people are like, "Well, you know, I've got, uh, I've got Claude to a- to f- solve all of my, uh, my h- my tech support questions, so what do I need you for?" Right? Um, lawyers probably see the same thing of like, "I don't need to pay you $1,000 to review this contract. Claude can do this for me," right? Um, I, I mean, again, I still struggle with professional certification and sort of the nuances of accounting as to whether or not the tools could do that all, all for you, and like you wanna make sure it's right. You know, there's always the disclaimer, "AI could be wrong," right? And you don't necessarily want that when you're doing, uh, your, your books and end up that you, you screwed something up and now you have a giant tax bill. So the, the ramifications of that feel maybe slightly more severe than some of the other circumstances. You can get yourself into legal hot water, but, you know, uh, I think like, uh, uh, the, the, the nuances of that I think are gonna be a little more detailed. So, uh, what do you do with this when your clients may sort of put up a fight about this or have a misperception about the level of effort and qualification required to do this work? Hmm. So there's a couple of things that we as accountants have always sold but never listed on an invoice. And, and some of these are, are, again, we're arguing out of logic, not arguing out of, you know, emotional reality, um, or, or perception I should say, but this is the reality. Um, and this is how we, we, we have to try and justify our fee to a certain extent. The first thing is that someone has to do quality control. Even in this new AI world, someone has to check the machine. And so it's really important that the person that does that knows what they're doing. They know what good looks like. They know what bad looks like. They smell a dead fish, because that's what happens is, is you have a, you have a sea of transactions, and buried in there are a couple of rotting corpses. You know, someone has to know how to find those, correct them, and then go, "Yep, we're happy with these results." most business owners are unable to do that. Now, the AI is getting better at self c- you know, review, but it's certainly not there today. In two, three years' time, maybe, maybe it will be, be better than a human. I totally concede that point. But for today, quality control is one thing we sell that the system isn't going to deliver for itself. The next thing that we sell is what I call the wringable neck, and that's the idea that there's a name on the file with a qualification or, or, or, or a statutory qualification insurance. If you use Claude to prepare your tax return, and you file on that basis, and it turns out that it was wrong, do you think that Anthropic is going to send you a check? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. Now, if I prepare your tax return, and it turns out to be wrong, you've got multiple avenues to pursue to recover those costs Okay? Because I'm required to carry insurance. a member of a professional organization. You've got a, you've got a procedure to go through there. Whether it works out or not is a different question, but at least there, those opportunities are there. is some accountability. Okay? And, and that, we've never had to price that before. other th- and, and, and the thing from our perspective, and this also affects MSPs, uh, and I was talking with a, with a couple of lawyers and accountants about this yesterday, is risk. In, in the accounting space, one of the, the, the trends we, we are seeing, and this is, this has always been the case, you know, we, we have a service plan for it. We call it self-service. You know, where a client does their own books in Xero or QuickBooks, and then they want us to do the tax return. we won't do a tax return based on a trial balance. We just don't do it. We decline because you, you take all the risk, you have zero ability to affect the, the, the numbers. So, you know, if you, if you called me and said, "Hey, here's my QuickBooks trial balance. Can you do a tax return?" I say, "No." I, I'm not taking that risk. So we build in review hours, and you pay for those review hours. We review your ledger. We're looking for problems. We're gonna clean it up, and if it needs more than we've budgeted for, you will pay that extra because that was your fault, not our fault. We want clean books before we start the tax process. And then we do a workup of every file. We don't just take the trial balance and, and, and the ledger and assume they're right. We now prove that they're right. That makes me more expensive than some other tax shops that will just take their trial balance and say, "Hey, that's the client's risk, not ours. We don't care if the bank account wasn't balanced. We don't care if the li- if the assets don't exist. We are just going to pump out a tax return." We won't do that. And the reason we won't do that is we are at risk either way. So if I'm gonna be at risk, I wanna get paid for the risk or at least do the work to know that I'm happy with the level of risk I'm taking. Ja. Now, if we move into a world where AI is doing the work and you're just paying a professional to file a tax return at a much cheaper rate because AI is doing all the a- the aggregation of data, paying for the risk? You're assuming it as a professional But the cl- but the, the client's no longer paying for it. They used to pay for it because they paid for the hours used to do the review, to do the cleanup, to prepare the return. Well, if those hours are compressing They're no longer paying for risk. So that's a, a big issue on the accounting space, and there's gonna be a version of that that applies to MSPs as well One of the other pieces maybe I'm curious about is, um, uh, I, I think maybe you guys f- face a similar issue around how do people scale into the industry if all sort of the remedial junior work is being done by AI agents, right? And similar, I've been thinking about this in the MSP industry, is like most people will start in sort of t- tier one triage doing password resets and supporting users with Outlook issues. And if all of that gets given to the robots, how do people scale up to that tier two level and get to, uh, the work that is more of the QA? Uh, uh, is it just sort of that you have to have some book knowledge around these things to be able to judge whether or not the AI is doing things properly, or it does it create a, create the situation where it kind of removes a rung from the ladder, and you kinda have to leap up to get to the first place in having a job in an accounting firm in the future? Yeah. So it definitely does remove a rung from the ladder. And, and there is a, a hidden problem, uh, that while AI might solve or partially solve our current talent crisis, in the accounting world we have a major talent crisis right now. We just can't get pe- good people. and I'm sure many industries have the same thing. Um, so, so there is a rung that's, that's been taken out of the ladder. And, and this is not gonna … We're not gonna see this for maybe another five years. Because in five years' time, we've stopped hiring juniors, and all of a sudden we want an experienced person or we need a, in the accounting space, we'd say we need a manager. And we normally grow our own managers. We haven't been growing our own managers for five years. So where are they gonna come from? And we, we, we will desperately need them, they won't be there. Um, so how do we deal with this, this lost rung, as you put it? Uh, there's, there's two main strategies that I've been thinking about. And, and so obviously education is a part of that, but we all know that people come out of school with a lot of book knowledge, and they're of no practical use, because they learn by doing, and that's the step we, we are taking away. the airline industry has been, has grappled with this for a very long time, and they do not let a pilot get into a live cockpit with passengers on the plane until they have done hundreds of hours of simulator training. have flown that plane full of passengers a thousand times virtually before they ever face a live passenger, on a jet, on a jet anyway. we need to start to think in the accounting industry and in the MSP industry, we have to think about how do we simulate real work so that when someone starts to work, they are ready to work. Book knowledge is not enough. You have … We have to find a way to do the reps in order to build the muscle, and we can't fake that. We still have to do something to build the reps. So that's number one. Number two is I think we have to redefine what are we looking for. And quality control, even in, in MSP land, is going to be a significant part of what we do. So we have to retrain around what does good look like Bookkeepers learnt what good looks like because they spent years coding the transactions and getting feedback from their supervisors about where- the mistakes they've made. Well, their job is going to move to be doing that same work, but watching the machine instead. they have to now start to really understand what good looks like, because if they don't, don't know what good looks like, they can't identify bad. So that's how we l- I look at it in the accounting space. We've gotta, we've gotta talk about simulations. How do we train without, uh, you know, putting tax at risk? Um, and how do we help, uh, train people to know what good looks like rather than letting them learn that by osmosis, which is how they used to learn it Yeah, this is interesting. I'd not considered simulation, but, uh, so I was wondering where you were going with the, the, the pilots. But that, that makes a ton of sense. And, you know, to some degree, I suppose this is a strange issue of like, uh, the AIs will sort of remove that rung, but also provide the, the sort of the, the, the training and simulation requirement, right? Like an AI can build a lot of these simulations and act as a customer to, to give coaching and mentoring to, to scale up. This would be, I think, you know, maybe a separate pod-podcast entirely, but, uh, this I think is, uh, what you touched on is the future of education in general, right? Like a lot of this I think will be sort of pair-based learning of, uh, mentorship, and then you kind of exceed the coach at some point and have human level intelligence to QA and oversight these things for, you know, things that just require nuance, right? Like robots for now are still very good at predictable outcomes and are not terribly creative. Like they can act like they're creative, but they're generally kinda crap at it. Uh, and I think that this will be sort of an interesting future as that shifts and it becomes more of a, "I'll help you up to this level, and then you get to a level where you st- actually start to monitor me." So I think this will be, uh, uh, this will exist in pretty much every knowledge-based industry. And as you said, you guys are kinda seeing the, the thin edge of the wedge of this and, but it'll, it'll trickle down and affect all of us really. Well, this is fascinating, Peter. Uh, really appreciate ti- uh, your time. We'll, um, we'll link to you, uh, you yourself, your LinkedIn profile and your, your company, Fuel Accounting, uh, if anybody wants to continue the conversation. Any other sort of parting notes, words of wisdom, uh, from the front lines of, of knowledge work in the age of AI? Yeah. So I mean, your audience probably works with, with lots of accountants and, uh, in, in my AI accountant program, we actually teach accountants, uh, how to think about AI and how to implement AI within their firm, uh, so that they can… Basically, so they can survive the next two years. Because, you know, I'm convinced that the work will be different in less than two years from now, substantially different, and someone that hasn't adapted to that, uh, will not a good time with, with, with the industry. Um, so if any of your listeners have accountants and, and they, they are grappling with what should I be doing with AI? Uh, yeah, send them, send them to theaiaccountant.ai and we have something called the Practice Transformation Program, where we, we, we, we talk through all of the issues around AI, what it's doing to the marketplace. We talk about that price compression, uh, and, and then how do they prepare for a world where the AI does more and more of the work And not only the accountants that work for them, but probably a lot of their clients are accountants as well, and sort of this could be kind of leading them to that conversation of, Yeah changing my business, this is changing your business, so let's get on top of this," right? Well, that's great. Appreciate your time, Peter. Okay. Thank you. It was a pleasure